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Amazon's new refunds policy will 'crush' small businesses, outraged sellers say

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Re: Amazon's new refunds policy will 'crush' small businesses, outraged sellers say

#181

Post by will_brown »

detaro wrote: post #78
will_brown wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give examples of what you mean by a defective product? Do you mean the legal definition[1], more or less as in "unsafe"? Because if so, the reason they are likely telling you to discard defective product is so it can't be used as evidence in a liability case in the instance an unsafe product has caused any harm. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_defect

Wouldn't having the customer ship it back before you give them a refund decrease the chance that they'll keep it and use it against you?

No if you ship a defective product back to Amazon, one that has caused injury, and they got rid of it and you sued, their act could and would likely be considered * spoilation of evidence*. As a result Amazon could be sanctioned by a court and have the burden of evidence shift against them (i.e. no longer do the plaintiffs/you have to prove the product was defective, now the defense would have to prove the product wasn't defective).

Re: Amazon's new refunds policy will 'crush' small businesses, outraged sellers say

#182

Post by will_brown »

kbutler wrote: post #76
will_brown wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give examples of what you mean by a defective product? Do you mean the legal definition[1], more or less as in "unsafe"? Because if so, the reason they are likely telling you to discard defective product is so it can't be used as evidence in a liability case in the instance an unsafe product has caused any harm. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_defect

"A product defect is any characteristic of a product which hinders its usability for the purpose for which it was designed and manufactured." This does not imply "unsafe".

I don't think you read the second sentence defining the legal definition:

>Product defects arise most prominently in legal contexts, where the term is applied to "anything that renders the product not reasonably safe"

Re: Amazon's new refunds policy will 'crush' small businesses, outraged sellers say

#183

Post by kfriede »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #161
richthegeek wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, I really am amazed how few consumer protections you seem to have! In the UK we're protected on two levels: firstly the "Distance Selling Regulation" means we have the right to cancel many contracts/purchases made not-in-person within 14 days of delivery. And secondly, if a good is faulty, not as described, or unfit for purpose then we have a right to a refund under those terms also. Probably because of these alr…

the "Distance Selling Regulation" means we have the right to cancel many contracts/purchases made not-in-person within 14 days of delivery. First of all, the Consumer Contracts Directive replaced that in 2014, no? Second, how exactly would this have protected the buyer? Maybe no restocking fee and only difference between free and basic shipping? In EU, does seller HAVE to pay for return shipping? Third, you know that…

Not to mention, not all of the EU is the same. Want to return something in Germany? Forget about it.

Buying from an independent seller on Amazon is similar to buying on eBay. You're taking the risk of not having the customer service that large corporations can afford.

Plus, Amazon customer support will often help out with claims where the seller is in the wrong (e.g. item does not match description).

Re: Amazon's new refunds policy will 'crush' small businesses, outraged sellers say

#184

Post by antisthenes »

jasonlaramburu wrote: post #178
sxates wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the perspective. I totally get it - which is why I didn't go on a rampage over my $90 pan not being up to my standards. I can sympathize with the sellers here (though I think the policies sometimes favor themselves over their customers) - BUT - as you've noted yourself, Amazon's scale has allowed them to do a lot better than the little guys. If this had been a Prime item, it would have been free return shi…

What value do 3rd party sellers actually provide to Amazon customers? Yes sometimes the price is lower, but that's usually because they bought the goods at a retail store auction for next to nothing (these auctions sell lots of returned merchandise sight unseen). Anyone running one of these businesses has to realize what they're doing is more than a little sketchy.

That's a very sweeping generalization that doesn't have much to do with reality.

The majority of 3rd party sellers by volume own their own websites outside of Amazon. The ones you described are tiny mom&pop stores that come and go by the thousand every year.

Re: Amazon's new refunds policy will 'crush' small businesses, outraged sellers say

#185

Post by olyjohn »

komali2 wrote: post #136
settsu wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ebay.

Another good example, but I've definitely heard sellers complaining about ebay as well.

One of my friends listed 3 pocket knives on eBay. After waiting a week for the auctions to close, 2 out of the 3 buyers said "Cancel my order, I'm not interested." So his auctions were totally screwed over, and he had to wait another week by setting up another auction. One of those re-posts had the EXACT same thing happen. Turns out that eBay won't do anything unless a user has failed to pay for 3 transactions within something like 90 days. That means you can go bid on an item once a month, not pay the seller, and have no repercussions. Because the transaction never completes, you can't leave feedback on the buyer.

Re: Amazon's new refunds policy will 'crush' small businesses, outraged sellers say

#186

Post by jasonlaramburu »

antisthenes wrote: post #184
jasonlaramburu wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What value do 3rd party sellers actually provide to Amazon customers? Yes sometimes the price is lower, but that's usually because they bought the goods at a retail store auction for next to nothing (these auctions sell lots of returned merchandise sight unseen). Anyone running one of these businesses has to realize what they're doing is more than a little sketchy.

That's a very sweeping generalization that doesn't have much to do with reality. The majority of 3rd party sellers by volume own their own websites outside of Amazon. The ones you described are tiny mom&pop stores that come and go by the thousand every year.

Sorry I don't buy that. The only reason a consumer would choose a 3rd party seller is price. If Seller can beat Amazon (presumably the most efficient retailer on Earth) on price then Seller must have obtained the goods at below wholesale price.

Re: Amazon's new refunds policy will 'crush' small businesses, outraged sellers say

#187

Post by sdoering »

kfriede wrote: post #183
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the "Distance Selling Regulation" means we have the right to cancel many contracts/purchases made not-in-person within 14 days of delivery. First of all, the Consumer Contracts Directive replaced that in 2014, no? Second, how exactly would this have protected the buyer? Maybe no restocking fee and only difference between free and basic shipping? In EU, does seller HAVE to pay for return shipping? Third, you know that…

Not to mention, not all of the EU is the same. Want to return something in Germany? Forget about it. Buying from an independent seller on Amazon is similar to buying on eBay. You're taking the risk of not having the customer service that large corporations can afford. Plus, Amazon customer support will often help out with claims where the seller is in the wrong (e.g. item does not match description).

I don't know in what Germany you are living. But with the former "Fernabsatzgesetz" (now integrated into our BGB) we have the right to return everything we order online within a period of two weeks.

Never had a problem returning anything ordered online. Ok one should nonetheless read the terms before ordering.

Re: Amazon's new refunds policy will 'crush' small businesses, outraged sellers say

#188

Post by morsch »

kfriede wrote: post #183
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the "Distance Selling Regulation" means we have the right to cancel many contracts/purchases made not-in-person within 14 days of delivery. First of all, the Consumer Contracts Directive replaced that in 2014, no? Second, how exactly would this have protected the buyer? Maybe no restocking fee and only difference between free and basic shipping? In EU, does seller HAVE to pay for return shipping? Third, you know that…

Not to mention, not all of the EU is the same. Want to return something in Germany? Forget about it. Buying from an independent seller on Amazon is similar to buying on eBay. You're taking the risk of not having the customer service that large corporations can afford. Plus, Amazon customer support will often help out with claims where the seller is in the wrong (e.g. item does not match description).

Not to mention, not all of the EU is the same.

No, that would be rather dull. But in terms of returning stuff you bought on the Internet, it pretty much is: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_Rights_Directive_20...

"The current varying lengths of the withdrawal periods both between the Member States and for distance and off-premises contracts cause legal uncertainty and compliance costs. The same withdrawal period should apply to all distance and off-premises contracts. In the case of service contracts, the withdrawal period should expire after 14 days from the conclusion of the contract. In the case of sales contracts, the withdrawal period should expire after 14 days from the day on which the consumer or a third party other than the carrier and indicated by the consumer, acquires physical possession of the goods."

Re: Amazon's new refunds policy will 'crush' small businesses, outraged sellers say

#189

Post by sharemywin »

Sleeep wrote: post #159
sharemywin wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon doesn't need independent sellers anymore.

Third party sellers are a a cash cow - they take all the risks and Amazon is just a middleman. They make up half of Amazon's sales. Amazon's ultimate game plan may be to drop their retail business altogether and become just a logistics company.

I guess they use it as a win-win if you want a little bit more cost but fast shipping you use them and they win. if you want slower shipping you use a third party and they collect most of the profit and they win.

Re: Amazon's new refunds policy will 'crush' small businesses, outraged sellers say

#190

Post by mywittyname »

falcolas wrote: post #72
sharemywin wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon doesn't need independent sellers anymore.

I'd say that most of their listings are dominated by independent sellers; you can't even tell if Amazon is offering an object without digging into the "see more sellers". For example, find a coffee grinder sold by Amazon (note, not Amazon Warehouse Deals) https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_hi_eb?rh=n%3A1055398%2Cn%3A2...

Amazon keeps indy sellers around so they can use shopping data to identify trends on high-margin, easy-to-produce good that can be readily copied and offered by Amazon for much cheaper.

IMHO.

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