Amazon's new refunds policy will 'crush' small businesses, outraged sellers say • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon's new refunds policy will 'crush' small businesses, outraged sellers say

#171

Post by dgacmu » Wed, Aug 02, 2017, 6:39 PM UTC

notfromhere wrote: post #129

Karunamon wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

eBay is already tremendously hostile to sellers before the fees. Can't leave feedback for buyers, a refund policy via PayPal that seems tailor made to allow scam buyers to get free stuff, and so forth. Basically it seems like the only thing a buyer can be sanctioned for is simple non-payment.

Also ebay's huge fees make it almost not worth bothering to sell on there.

Amazon's are as high or higher. https://sellercentral.amazon.com/gp/seller/registration/part...

The "referral fee" ranges from 8%, to 15% (common), and up. Up can go pretty high, but mostly for Amazon's own stuff.

Ebay's are mostly just in the 10% range: http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/fees.html

Re: Amazon's new refunds policy will 'crush' small businesses, outraged sellers say

#172

Post by jasonlaramburu » Wed, Aug 02, 2017, 6:42 PM UTC

antisthenes wrote: post #152

sxates wrote: post #60

Anecdotal experience buying on Amazon recently: Bought a new induction cooking pan. A nice one at $90. Didn't really pay much attention to who was selling it, just bought it like I do everything else from Amazon. It took about two weeks to arrive because it was from an independent seller, and was not 'Prime eligible'. When it arrived, I took it out of the box and was immediately disappointed. It was really heavy, and…

I can offer you the perspective of a small business employee that sells a number of products on Amazon without Prime fulfillment. In your view, how much should you have paid for shipping for an item that you didn't want? Nothing? Should the seller be responsible for shipping the item both ways? There is already very little margin in selling commodity goods, especially when you consider Amazon takes 15% of gross value…

From the PoV of a company whose products get sold by 3rd party sellers on Amazon, it's a total disaster. They regularly sell used or returned items as 'new,' and most customers don't notice. They provide atrocious customer service. Amazon does nothing to police this. These sellers also do everything in their power to avoid processing a return. I don't want to crap on your business, but I hope these regulations push the less scrupulous 3rd party sellers back to eBay.

Re: Amazon's new refunds policy will 'crush' small businesses, outraged sellers say

#173

Post by jasonlaramburu » Wed, Aug 02, 2017, 6:44 PM UTC

petra wrote: post #130

currymj wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's a good thing in the short term, but it also feels like an exercise of monopoly power by Amazon, which is going to be bad for consumers in the long run. can a business afford not to be listed on Amazon? in the long term, does Amazon have any interest in listing third parties? at some point I think the answer to both of these questions will be no, and then I'd expect the good customer experience to erode pretty qu…

Amazon is interested in listing 3rd parties: it's useful to have someone else take all of the product risk , while you offer the ideal store for your customers and do all the more low-risk parts like logistics, managing a site, selling low-risk products directly while someone else supply excess demand.

Frankly I don't see the benefit in this program for Amazon. 3rd party sellers often charge less, meaning less revenue for Amazon. The highly variable customer service also degrades Amazon's brand. Finally, Amazon still has to front the cost of any return/refund from a 3rd party seller, so there is still risk.

Re: Amazon's new refunds policy will 'crush' small businesses, outraged sellers say

#174

Post by sxates » Wed, Aug 02, 2017, 6:46 PM UTC

antisthenes wrote: post #152

sxates wrote: post #60

Anecdotal experience buying on Amazon recently: Bought a new induction cooking pan. A nice one at $90. Didn't really pay much attention to who was selling it, just bought it like I do everything else from Amazon. It took about two weeks to arrive because it was from an independent seller, and was not 'Prime eligible'. When it arrived, I took it out of the box and was immediately disappointed. It was really heavy, and…

I can offer you the perspective of a small business employee that sells a number of products on Amazon without Prime fulfillment. In your view, how much should you have paid for shipping for an item that you didn't want? Nothing? Should the seller be responsible for shipping the item both ways? There is already very little margin in selling commodity goods, especially when you consider Amazon takes 15% of gross value…

Thanks for the perspective. I totally get it - which is why I didn't go on a rampage over my $90 pan not being up to my standards. I can sympathize with the sellers here (though I think the policies sometimes favor themselves over their customers) - BUT - as you've noted yourself, Amazon's scale has allowed them to do a lot better than the little guys. If this had been a Prime item, it would have been free return shipping and full refund, no questions asked. As a customer, why wouldn't I go for that? It makes the experience I had with a small seller seem shocking by comparison.

Instead, I'll either avoid the independent sellers, or just to to Sur le Table. So how do these sellers win?

Re: Amazon's new refunds policy will 'crush' small businesses, outraged sellers say

#175

Post by threatofrain » Wed, Aug 02, 2017, 6:55 PM UTC

settsu wrote: post #91

sxates wrote: post #60

Anecdotal experience buying on Amazon recently: Bought a new induction cooking pan. A nice one at $90. Didn't really pay much attention to who was selling it, just bought it like I do everything else from Amazon. It took about two weeks to arrive because it was from an independent seller, and was not 'Prime eligible'. When it arrived, I took it out of the box and was immediately disappointed. It was really heavy, and…

I understand the disappointment and frustration here, but choosing to be out $90 for something that will never be used—vs. recouping some money and having the offending item gone—seems like a questionable decision.

I'd agree that $90 for a single item seems quite high to throw away without contention. My ballpark would be closer to $20-30, because it's not unusual for the fee to be over $10.

But that's my own subjective feeling, and I imagine others put their range higher or lower based on factors like distance to UPS store or Amazon locker, or how much they logistically have on their plate.

Re: Amazon's new refunds policy will 'crush' small businesses, outraged sellers say

#176

Post by threatofrain » Wed, Aug 02, 2017, 7:01 PM UTC

c2h5oh wrote: post #158

tomduncalf wrote: post #2

From a consumer point of view, this is a good thing. It sucks to have a different experience depending on whether something ships from Amazon or a third party, especially as their easy return policy is one of the main reasons I continue to use Amazon and pay for Prime. I can understand sellers frustration, but to my mind that's the price of having your products featured on Amazon. I've never encountered a third party…

tl;dr; Only Amazon really benefits, buyers will eat the cost and their experience might be worse. Smaller sellers will suffer the most. Mostly it let's Amazon hire fewer people in support department - they don't have to deal with the occasional refused return ("I dropped this glass item on tiles and it broke into a million pieces, I'd like my money back. Do I have to ship it back to you?" - paraphrased actual return…

I imagine there's a balance to be had somewhere, but offering superior customer assurance also means an increased willingness to buy from smaller vendors.

We should ultimately facilitate a marketplace where both business and customer have confidence in their transactions, rather than lingering suspicions that they don't understand the deal and will have to eat the cost.

Re: Amazon's new refunds policy will 'crush' small businesses, outraged sellers say

#177

Post by s73ver » Wed, Aug 02, 2017, 7:01 PM UTC

falcolas wrote: post #141

s73ver wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say the wave of scammers operating on Amazon is worse for consumers.

I'm of two minds - if legitimate sellers are pushed out, the signal to noise ratio will probably get worse, but the easier returns policy will help those screwed over by scammers...

Maybe. Although I'd think a consumer friendly policy would tend to drive scammers out, but the lure of Amazon may be too big for them to resist.

Re: Amazon's new refunds policy will 'crush' small businesses, outraged sellers say

#178

Post by jasonlaramburu » Wed, Aug 02, 2017, 7:01 PM UTC

sxates wrote: post #174

antisthenes wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can offer you the perspective of a small business employee that sells a number of products on Amazon without Prime fulfillment. In your view, how much should you have paid for shipping for an item that you didn't want? Nothing? Should the seller be responsible for shipping the item both ways? There is already very little margin in selling commodity goods, especially when you consider Amazon takes 15% of gross value…

Thanks for the perspective. I totally get it - which is why I didn't go on a rampage over my $90 pan not being up to my standards. I can sympathize with the sellers here (though I think the policies sometimes favor themselves over their customers) - BUT - as you've noted yourself, Amazon's scale has allowed them to do a lot better than the little guys. If this had been a Prime item, it would have been free return shi…

What value do 3rd party sellers actually provide to Amazon customers? Yes sometimes the price is lower, but that's usually because they bought the goods at a retail store auction for next to nothing (these auctions sell lots of returned merchandise sight unseen). Anyone running one of these businesses has to realize what they're doing is more than a little sketchy.

Re: Amazon's new refunds policy will 'crush' small businesses, outraged sellers say

#179

Post by antisthenes » Wed, Aug 02, 2017, 7:04 PM UTC

sxates wrote: post #174

antisthenes wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can offer you the perspective of a small business employee that sells a number of products on Amazon without Prime fulfillment. In your view, how much should you have paid for shipping for an item that you didn't want? Nothing? Should the seller be responsible for shipping the item both ways? There is already very little margin in selling commodity goods, especially when you consider Amazon takes 15% of gross value…

Thanks for the perspective. I totally get it - which is why I didn't go on a rampage over my $90 pan not being up to my standards. I can sympathize with the sellers here (though I think the policies sometimes favor themselves over their customers) - BUT - as you've noted yourself, Amazon's scale has allowed them to do a lot better than the little guys. If this had been a Prime item, it would have been free return shi…

The Amazon 3rd party seller system is not designed for these small sellers to win. It's designed for Amazon to see which products are in demand and how much customers are willing to pay along with gathering feedback from customer expectations.

It's more of a platform to see what works and what doesn't, at the expense of small businesses who wanted to sell on Amazon. At least that's my perspective. A 3-5% margin may be fine when you run a 100B business, have economies of scale and a world-class brand, but the same will spell disaster for a small business.

There are also a lot of dishonest 3rd party sellers who come and go like a swarm of locusts. Maybe they "win" in the short run by selling counterfeit goods and not honoring Amazon policies, but in the end they will lose also when Amazon bans non-prime fulfillment of orders (that day is coming sooner rather than later, my guess is before 2020)

Re: Amazon's new refunds policy will 'crush' small businesses, outraged sellers say

#180

Post by hsod » Wed, Aug 02, 2017, 7:24 PM UTC

richthegeek wrote: post #67

sxates wrote: post #60

Anecdotal experience buying on Amazon recently: Bought a new induction cooking pan. A nice one at $90. Didn't really pay much attention to who was selling it, just bought it like I do everything else from Amazon. It took about two weeks to arrive because it was from an independent seller, and was not 'Prime eligible'. When it arrived, I took it out of the box and was immediately disappointed. It was really heavy, and…

Wow, I really am amazed how few consumer protections you seem to have! In the UK we're protected on two levels: firstly the "Distance Selling Regulation" means we have the right to cancel many contracts/purchases made not-in-person within 14 days of delivery. And secondly, if a good is faulty, not as described, or unfit for purpose then we have a right to a refund under those terms also. Probably because of these alr…

Sometimes I think Europe's chief export is incredulity :)

> And secondly, if a good is faulty, not as described, or unfit for purpose then we have a right to a refund under those terms also.

None of this applies here, OP simply wasn't happy with their purchase. Does it really make sense for the seller to have to pay out of pocket for round-trip shipping on a heavy iron pan because OP didn't bother reading the listing or looking at the pictures?