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Bitcoin Cash Soars to $700, Coinbase Customers Threaten to Sue

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Re: Bitcoin Cash Soars to $700, Coinbase Customers Threaten to Sue

#151
post #42

It's an interesting situation, but assigning liability to coinbase for this seems like it'd be a problem long term. Unlike traditional securities, there's nothing stopping me from going out and making my own fork tomorrow - and then would all exchanges be required to add support for that fork, too? Where do you draw the line?

It's a good way of looking at it. Another perspective, which makes this issue so complicated, is that we could compare this to: a company on the stock exchange splitting into two companies, investors should be getting shares in both companies, but the brokerage decides they are not going to recognize the second company and thus the investors don't get their shares in the second company.

> a company on the stock exchange splitting into two companies

No, that is not what's happening here: Bitcoin is a consensus network where consensus is achieved essentially by mining sequence of blocks, which requires a huge amount of computational power. Each block have a relation with the previous block. Sometimes two or more blocks are mined almost at the same time (creating a fork), miners then choose one and keep mining as fast as they can. At some point one fork will be longer than the other/s, which is when consensus happen: miners abandon the shortest forks and keep mining on the largest one.

Re: Bitcoin Cash Soars to $700, Coinbase Customers Threaten to Sue

#152

The problem both sides are trying to solve is that the system as a whole cannot handle the volume of transactions. Before the split, bitcoin handled 7 transactions per second, while Visa handles 50,000 transactions per second (I'm worrying these numbers from memory, so they might be wildly inaccurate). Bitcoin Cash solves this with a larger block size. This is admittedly a short-term solution. Bitcoin main, on the ot…

> Bitcoin main, on the other hand, is moving toward SegWit, which introduces third-party middlemen.

SegWit does not introduce third party middlemen. SegWit is just a different way to calculate the transaction hash that needs to be signed, such that it doesn’t include the signature script. This was arguably the way it should have been all along, since the signature script itself isn’t signed (it contains the signature). This means bypassers can modify it without invalidating the modified transaction (if they don’t touch the actual signature data but only add e.g. a NO_OP opcode).

Re: Bitcoin Cash Soars to $700, Coinbase Customers Threaten to Sue

#153
post #130
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if they could make transactions, the exchanges aren't accepting deposits of BCH. The only exception I'm aware of is ViaBTC and apparently they want 20 confirmations (about a week at current hashrate, I think). The BCH market cap that's quoted in this article is rather misleading because nearly all of those coins simply cannot be sold on exchanges currently. Regarding the question in the replies: when the fork ha…

Wait a minute, what? How can Kraken claim to have a BCH/BTC market if you can’t deposit BCH and sell them?

For BTC they already hold pre-fork.

Re: Bitcoin Cash Soars to $700, Coinbase Customers Threaten to Sue

#154

The problem both sides are trying to solve is that the system as a whole cannot handle the volume of transactions. Before the split, bitcoin handled 7 transactions per second, while Visa handles 50,000 transactions per second (I'm worrying these numbers from memory, so they might be wildly inaccurate). Bitcoin Cash solves this with a larger block size. This is admittedly a short-term solution. Bitcoin main, on the ot…

I don't see how segwit is giving up decentralization at all. Decentralization isn't binary. There will be many many providers that can offer more streamlined and user friendly access to bitcoin. That's decentralization. You will still have the option of interacting with the blockchain directly. That's decentralization.

Re: Bitcoin Cash Soars to $700, Coinbase Customers Threaten to Sue

#155

The problem both sides are trying to solve is that the system as a whole cannot handle the volume of transactions. Before the split, bitcoin handled 7 transactions per second, while Visa handles 50,000 transactions per second (I'm worrying these numbers from memory, so they might be wildly inaccurate). Bitcoin Cash solves this with a larger block size. This is admittedly a short-term solution. Bitcoin main, on the ot…

And then muddying the waters is the argument that larger blocks are going to centralize it because poorer people won't be able to run a full node in their homes. (Versus paying $10 for a VPS to do so.) Conveniently ignoring that no one wants to run a full node for a settlement layer between big financial companies. But further screwing it up is ASICBoost, which isn't compatible with other proposals like Segwit. That…

> So doing even 1000/sec means around 1.8Mbps (plus overhead) just to get the flow of transactions.

Huh, maybe we should come up with a cryptocurrency where you are awarded new blocks for the storage and bandwidth you contribute to the effort, rather than for how many hashes you can calculate per second.

After all, if we're hoping to handling transactions on the scale of Visa, and we don't like centralization, we need to think about decentralized storage of all that information sooner or later. SegWit might not be the perfect answer, but you can't keep requiring everyone to store every transaction that ever happened. We need a solution that is both distributed and publicly verifiable. Something like IPFS comes to mind.

And in order to incentivize people to contribute storage and bandwidth, there would have to be a way to reward those who do so. I think this would be much more useful than the current situation where we basically reward people for wasting a lot of energy.

Re: Bitcoin Cash Soars to $700, Coinbase Customers Threaten to Sue

#156
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In practice that's often not how that works, though. I had a company I have shares in that split in two and they gave me a choice, either convert my shares to the new company or keep them in the existing company. I didn't automatically get shares in the new company and if I opted too I would have lost the shares in the original company.

What company was this? I have literally never heard of a spin off that did not result in a stockholder getting ownership of the parent and spin off, or the stockholder retaining ownership of one company and being paid out for the value of their ownership in the other company. Was this a publicly traded company?

It's not the most usual mechanism, but it exists: http://www.spinoffresearch.com/spin-off-mechanics/split-offs

Edit: usually (always?) the exchange is preceded by a partial IPO (or a stake in a quoted company exists for some reason) and they are distributing the remaining shares.

Re: Bitcoin Cash Soars to $700, Coinbase Customers Threaten to Sue

#157

The problem both sides are trying to solve is that the system as a whole cannot handle the volume of transactions. Before the split, bitcoin handled 7 transactions per second, while Visa handles 50,000 transactions per second (I'm worrying these numbers from memory, so they might be wildly inaccurate). Bitcoin Cash solves this with a larger block size. This is admittedly a short-term solution. Bitcoin main, on the ot…

You are confusing Segwit with Lightning network. Segwit is just a version that optimizes transactions. It's an extension of an unused opcode from the previous version, allowing previous nodes to view Segwit blocks as compatible, therefore only requiring a "soft-fork." Pro-Segwit people tend to be pro-Lightning, since it is not feasible to validate Visa-scale transactions in such an inefficient, centralized manner. This camp views Bitcoin more as a user-controlled store of value/bank account, still requiring a hierarchy of processors to handle day-to-day transactions.

Re: Bitcoin Cash Soars to $700, Coinbase Customers Threaten to Sue

#158
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a wallet.dat from a regular Core client, full node. I wasn't able to find a client that seemed to be able to import that wallet.dat. If you know a way to handle that, great! I don't know if I'd trust some arbitrary client to still be around and maintained when I need to retrieve my funds from the latest version of the block chain. I'm marginally afraid of what will happen if the person maintaining Electrum died…

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transferring_coins_from_Bitcoin-Q...

Yep.

> Before reading this page, users should note that directly manipulating ECDSA private keys is dangerous and can result in losing bitcoins[1][2].

Hmm.

> Use the dumpprivkey command to get the private key. Repeat for as many bitcoin addresses as have money in them.

OK, so how many bitcoin addresses do I have with money in them? examining 3.5 year old wallet.dat, checking Oh, THAT Many? And are you sure that is all of them? (It was quite a lot of addresses, and not sure how I would know if the listing was complete.)

So, is there some way to safely automate this? Try it... the command outputs are all in JSON (configurable?), so you most likely won't be solving this with just pipes, awk, and grep. I tried exporting a few private keys this way and they are not exaggerating when they say:

> This guide is [not] for the impatient or time-stressed, it is recommended that users of Bitcoin Core simply wait out the blockchain synchronization. There are many benefits to running a Full node including trustlessness, security and privacy which lightweight wallets cannot match.

I have to use Bitcoin-Qt to get the keys out, and it does not appear to be fool-proof at all. Might as well just sync the whole blockchain then.

Re: Bitcoin Cash Soars to $700, Coinbase Customers Threaten to Sue

#159

The problem both sides are trying to solve is that the system as a whole cannot handle the volume of transactions. Before the split, bitcoin handled 7 transactions per second, while Visa handles 50,000 transactions per second (I'm worrying these numbers from memory, so they might be wildly inaccurate). Bitcoin Cash solves this with a larger block size. This is admittedly a short-term solution. Bitcoin main, on the ot…

You confused Segwit with Lightning Network. Segwit only helps to enable Lightning Network. It is not required for LN.

Re: Bitcoin Cash Soars to $700, Coinbase Customers Threaten to Sue

#160

The problem both sides are trying to solve is that the system as a whole cannot handle the volume of transactions. Before the split, bitcoin handled 7 transactions per second, while Visa handles 50,000 transactions per second (I'm worrying these numbers from memory, so they might be wildly inaccurate). Bitcoin Cash solves this with a larger block size. This is admittedly a short-term solution. Bitcoin main, on the ot…

I'll add to this that Coinbase freezing everyone's Bitcoin Cash is a great example of the problems with giving up decentralization.

Coinbase warned people for a month that they wouldn't support Bitcoin Cash.
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