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Drug Submarine Seized In Ecuador Is Huge Leap For Smugglers

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Re: Drug Submarine Seized In Ecuador Is Huge Leap For Smugglers

#21

Post by dagw »

roel_v wrote: post #19
dagw wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Criminal gangs make good money selling tobacco and alcohol, which are legal basically everywhere. Sure not as much as illegal drugs, but still good money. Claiming legalization will destroy the illegal drug trade is just as naive as believing legalization will have no effect.

... well yes because of the market distortion that the taxes on them produce. The only reason people smuggle them are to evade taxes. If you're going to legalize and then tax it so high that it will still cost the same as before the legalization, of course the negative side effects will continue to exist.

Do you honestly believe that the government would legalize drugs and then not use the opportunity to increase their budget by heavily taxing them? In fact one of the main argument I keep hearing for legalization is that it will bring in all kinds of tax revenue.

Re: Drug Submarine Seized In Ecuador Is Huge Leap For Smugglers

#22

Post by CamperBob »

shin_lao wrote: post #15
roel_v wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

/It's naive to believe that legalizing drugs will damage drug lords./ This is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in weeks on the internet, and believe me, that counts for something. How can they flood the market with cheaper substances? There is little reason a kilo of cocaine should cost much more than a kilo of coffee (ok maybe 5 times more than that because of lower yield per square cultivated meter). Still, the…

Err... They would simply use their billions to go legit? No damage, just making their business legal. If I may, let's say there's no more illegal activity related to drug. Would that solve violence? Not really, life of crime is chosen because you don't have options. Only the top drug lords are wealthy with drugs, read Freakonomics for more info about it. There was an interview from a crime lord who said something alo…

Err... They would simply use their billions to go legit? No damage, just making their business legal.

Yes, that is exactly what they will do. Read about the Kennedy family sometime.

Re: Drug Submarine Seized In Ecuador Is Huge Leap For Smugglers

#23

Post by roel_v »

dagw wrote: post #21
roel_v wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... well yes because of the market distortion that the taxes on them produce. The only reason people smuggle them are to evade taxes. If you're going to legalize and then tax it so high that it will still cost the same as before the legalization, of course the negative side effects will continue to exist.

Do you honestly believe that the government would legalize drugs and then not use the opportunity to increase their budget by heavily taxing them? In fact one of the main argument I keep hearing for legalization is that it will bring in all kinds of tax revenue.

Of course it will be taxed, and probably at a higher rate than other products. The trick is to tax it at such a level that fraud (smuggling) is contained within acceptable bounds. For example, normal VAT here in the Netherlands (only country I know the rates of by heart, I have no reason to believe that it's significantly different in the rest of Western Europe) is 19% ; cigarettes are taxed at close to 300 % (VAT + excise). Yet still smuggling cigarettes is a relatively small problem, which indicates that this level can be borne by the market.

Note that I support nor advocate 'sin' or 'health' taxes, be it for moral or utilitarian reasons, I'm simply saying that even at 300% the amount of people that turn to the black market is fairly small. But even when taxing them at normal rates (VAT only) they would already bring in money - everything is better than the 0 they bring in now, or negative if you take into account the costs that arise from situations that exist only because drugs are illegal.

(edit: added missing half sentence)

Re: Drug Submarine Seized In Ecuador Is Huge Leap For Smugglers

#24

Post by shin_lao »

roel_v wrote: post #20
shin_lao wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Err... They would simply use their billions to go legit? No damage, just making their business legal. If I may, let's say there's no more illegal activity related to drug. Would that solve violence? Not really, life of crime is chosen because you don't have options. Only the top drug lords are wealthy with drugs, read Freakonomics for more info about it. There was an interview from a crime lord who said something alo…

Of course not. The skills and infrastructure needed to run criminal organization are vastly different from those to run a business in a regular market. Apart from that, I don't see the problem with former drug lords turning into 'regular' companies, as long as they stick to the rules of the 'regular' market, which they'll have to if they want to succeed. It's not like Proctor & Gamble goes around beating people up to…

I don't get your point.

A poor person sells drug because it's the only way to make money. He doesn't make a lot of money out of it and any job would be better as he would get health care and pension on top of it. He would not also risk going to jail or die from a gunshot.

Now there's no more "illegal drugs" to sell.

What does this person do to make money? Remember there's no job for him/her and he somehow needs to eat to live.

I'm not saying the war on drug is fought properly, but between putting in jail all people who sell and/or consume drugs and let everyone do as they want there's probably stuff to be done.

Heroin was legal when first discovered, it was removed from the market because it's a lethal substance.

The "let everyone decide" doesn't work. Food education doesn't beat the commercial from Coca-Cola & the like. You would get the same problems with drugs, except drugs are not only lethal on the short term but somehow make you unproductive.

Then you're going to tell me "but we would regulate these drugs and they would have to comply to strict regulations". Boom. Crime opportunity.

My point is that legalizing some drugs wouldn't change the core of the problem.

Re: Drug Submarine Seized In Ecuador Is Huge Leap For Smugglers

#25

Post by JoeAltmaier »

roel_v wrote: post #20
shin_lao wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Err... They would simply use their billions to go legit? No damage, just making their business legal. If I may, let's say there's no more illegal activity related to drug. Would that solve violence? Not really, life of crime is chosen because you don't have options. Only the top drug lords are wealthy with drugs, read Freakonomics for more info about it. There was an interview from a crime lord who said something alo…

Of course not. The skills and infrastructure needed to run criminal organization are vastly different from those to run a business in a regular market. Apart from that, I don't see the problem with former drug lords turning into 'regular' companies, as long as they stick to the rules of the 'regular' market, which they'll have to if they want to succeed. It's not like Proctor & Gamble goes around beating people up to…

Hm. Didn't cocaine get an order of magnitude cheaper a decade ago? And didn't it mostly wipe out inner-city drug violence? Seems I remember Freakonomics covering this.

Re: Drug Submarine Seized In Ecuador Is Huge Leap For Smugglers

#26

Post by JoeAltmaier »

demallien wrote: post #4
dublinclontarf wrote: post #2

I did a little digging around a little more than a year ago when I had read about the narcotics submersibles. With this step up to full submarines I'm thinking that the people using these can now have them built in almost any location next to the sea around the world. Somalia would seem to be a good place to build, no government to sieze them.

Well, yes and no - you need a decent chink of infrastructure to build a submarine - you know, not having your engineering staff murdered, important supplies stolen, that sort of thing. It's hard to supply the sort of protection needed to guarantees these basic conditions when you're a long way from your support base. Of course, if a Somali warlord wanted to get in on the submarine-building business, he'd probably be…

Why not just buy one? They have the money.

Re: Drug Submarine Seized In Ecuador Is Huge Leap For Smugglers

#27

Post by mootothemax »

shin_lao wrote: post #24
roel_v wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course not. The skills and infrastructure needed to run criminal organization are vastly different from those to run a business in a regular market. Apart from that, I don't see the problem with former drug lords turning into 'regular' companies, as long as they stick to the rules of the 'regular' market, which they'll have to if they want to succeed. It's not like Proctor & Gamble goes around beating people up to…

I don't get your point. A poor person sells drug because it's the only way to make money. He doesn't make a lot of money out of it and any job would be better as he would get health care and pension on top of it. He would not also risk going to jail or die from a gunshot. Now there's no more "illegal drugs" to sell. What does this person do to make money? Remember there's no job for him/her and he somehow needs to ea…

Heroin was legal when first discovered, it was removed from the market because it's a lethal substance.

Care to cite a couple of sources for that? I thought it was due to being highly addictive with few medicinal benefits.

Re: Drug Submarine Seized In Ecuador Is Huge Leap For Smugglers

#28

Post by stcredzero »

Prediction: market forces will collide. As electric cars become more widespread, and lithium-ion batteries get cheaper, we'll get to the point when it will be profitable to run such subs entirely on batteries. Such subs wouldn't be disposable, but they could be exceedingly hard to detect.

Re: Drug Submarine Seized In Ecuador Is Huge Leap For Smugglers

#29

Post by roel_v »

shin_lao wrote: post #24
roel_v wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course not. The skills and infrastructure needed to run criminal organization are vastly different from those to run a business in a regular market. Apart from that, I don't see the problem with former drug lords turning into 'regular' companies, as long as they stick to the rules of the 'regular' market, which they'll have to if they want to succeed. It's not like Proctor & Gamble goes around beating people up to…

I don't get your point. A poor person sells drug because it's the only way to make money. He doesn't make a lot of money out of it and any job would be better as he would get health care and pension on top of it. He would not also risk going to jail or die from a gunshot. Now there's no more "illegal drugs" to sell. What does this person do to make money? Remember there's no job for him/her and he somehow needs to ea…

Your argument only holds if all poor people would switch to selling drugs. You're saying there is no alternative to selling drugs, which there obviously is, as demonstrated by the hundreds of millions of people worldwide who are poor yet do not sell drugs. If drugs are not illegal, those who are now selling drugs will simple have to do like the other poos people now.

Re: Drug Submarine Seized In Ecuador Is Huge Leap For Smugglers

#30

Post by protomyth »

roel_v wrote: post #23
dagw wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you honestly believe that the government would legalize drugs and then not use the opportunity to increase their budget by heavily taxing them? In fact one of the main argument I keep hearing for legalization is that it will bring in all kinds of tax revenue.

Of course it will be taxed, and probably at a higher rate than other products. The trick is to tax it at such a level that fraud (smuggling) is contained within acceptable bounds. For example, normal VAT here in the Netherlands (only country I know the rates of by heart, I have no reason to believe that it's significantly different in the rest of Western Europe) is 19% ; cigarettes are taxed at close to 300 % (VAT +…

Seeing the sales of cigarettes on reservation that do not honor state taxes and the number of customers buying, I would say paragraph one is not completely true. Smuggling is happening, it is just from a legal source.
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