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Scientists Edge Closer To Lab Test For Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

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Re: Scientists Edge Closer To Lab Test For Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

#141
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also worth noting that there is no clear causal relationship. There is a strong and well-established association between depression and inflammatory biomarkers, but we have very little idea of whether depression increases the risk of inflammatory illness or vice-versa. http://www.mdedge.com/currentpsychiatry/article/76288/depres...

The research I'm familiar with (and teach) suggests you see associations prospectively in both directions, but no clear evidence of causality (although I've grown skeptical of causality as a concept). This PNAS paper is nice to see, although as some are pointing out, there's a bit of p-hacking probably going on. My sense is that certain research topics are kind of ground zero in this misled, outdated mind-body war. S…

Many CFS studies use patients with depression as a control for the very reasons you have suggested.

Re: Scientists Edge Closer To Lab Test For Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

#142

Surprised no one has mentioned a Keto diet yet as a potential remedy for CFS. One of the biggest benefits of Keto is its anti-inflammatory effects. A quick Google search brings up at least a few research papers showing that Ketogenic diets have been seen to suppress the expression of inflammatory cytokines.

Just saw your other carbs comment, I agree. I've seen first hand the great improvements with Keto, but it's a very difficult diet to get into with the subsidies carb-heavy foods receive.

Re: Scientists Edge Closer To Lab Test For Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

#143
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because as a society we can't spend ten million dollars on every patient with a hard-to-diagnose chronic condition that may just be stress. It just isn't practical.

That sure does leave a lot of middle ground with doing nothing.

There is. They don't do nothing. They run some basic metabolic tests. If there's something specific (like you have pain in a particular place) they'll run more tests.

But when your complaint is something like "I don't have any energy", there are just too many branches in the decision tree. They need more to go on.

Re: Scientists Edge Closer To Lab Test For Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

#145
post #104

There seems to be a desire evident in the commentary on this topic to categorise CFS as either completely psychological, or completely physiological. My own experience, having had the condition for much of the past 10 years, and having (after many years of frustration) found treatment methods that have enabled me to achieve almost full recovery, is that it is very much both physiological and psychological, and that o…

What treatments did you discover?

Re: Scientists Edge Closer To Lab Test For Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

#146
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very good point. The paper suggests that "severity may be a key variable for subgrouping ME/CFS." So it's possible that there are three different ME/CFS diseases that can be distinguished by cytokine levels. Hopefully once these are separated, statistical analysis will succeed and medical progress would follow. In the bigger picture, you have to wonder how many things that we currently categorize as one dise…

> how many things that we currently categorize as one disease are really many different diseases. Had a GI doctor tell me he thinks there are 'lots' of gastrointestinal syndromes that medicine has no way to identify. Also have read an epidemiologist years ago that wrote there are probably a lot more infectious diseases out there. Some of which may have serious long term complications.

Fortunately we have a tool to help on both fronts: metegenomic sequencing. It's only just starting to be used in clinical settings in a non-retrospective way, but many groups are interested in how the gut microbiome (or changes of) can impact the etiology of GI disease. Several pharma startups are looking at therapies for GI disease that rely on changing the gut microbiome, either directly via introduction of new flora (fecal transplant or introduction of tailored microbial cocktails), or via small molecules that can shape the taxonomic distribution. Microbial cultures introduced to the GI tract tend to either die off entirely, or become dominant. It's a bit of an unsolved puzzle why the trend isn't toward plurality. The microbial therapies for C. diff. are one example.

Beyond GI disease there's also indication that the gut microbiome has psychological impact, and metabolic impact. There's a lot we don't know.

Metagenomic sequencing can disentangle the various organisms present in a sample and report all of the taxa present, but the results are only as good/complete as the database used, and unknowns can be a significant slice of the pie.

When our group does deep-enough sequencing and de novo viral genome assembly, we often have enough contigs beyond our organism of interest to assemble genomes for other viruses, and sometimes they are novel. Yes, there are more infectious diseases out there.

A Chinese team exploring the viruses of invertebrates found nearly 1,500 new viruses [1]. That one study expanded the list of known viruses by a significant number, we're talking double-digit percentage change. Many more viruses will be found, and some of them will be pathogenic.

In the (hopefully) near future it will be reasonable (if not yet cost effective) to use tools like high-throughput sequencing to look at everything in a sample, rather than ordering specific assays for individual pathogens. It's a long road until sequencing will be part of the standard of care, but we're in a golden age of biomedical exploration, enabled by sequencing and new molecular methods.

1. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v540/n7634/full/nature2...

Re: Scientists Edge Closer To Lab Test For Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

#147
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just false, and pretty insulting to the medical establishment.

It’s false that cortisol can be easily tested? Or it’s false that many doctors tell patients that their unexplained symptoms are probably just psychosomatic and they should try to reduce stress, as a way of getting them to go away and stop asking for diagnostic efforts beyond the doctor’s current level of expertise? I’ve experienced the latter first hand, and know many other people who have also, none of whom were ch…

Not op but cortisol is elevated in "just stress" as well as critical illness. An elevated cortisol is not a diagnostic test that can deferentiate between a serious medical problem and stress.

Re: Scientists Edge Closer To Lab Test For Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

#148
post #82
post #9

If someone comes to you with a whole lot of pain and loss of function, ignoring it and thinking it's just in their head/they just need to toughen up and get over it because nothing showed up in thier blood reports is something that is almost ubiquitous in the medical field today. I have a connective tissue disorder that was ignored for years because nothing showed up in my blood report and I looked healthy. There is…

> if someone is in pain/unhealthy there is a reason. Rarely it is psychological Work in medicine, and you'll find a lot of malingerers. Some of them don't even realise that they're faking it. Yes, it sucks from your point of view that no-one believes you, but from the other side, a lot of people fake it, and you have to sort out what's actually going on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munchausen_syndrome https://en.wi…

How do people fake seizures? Do they just flop around on the ground?

Re: Scientists Edge Closer To Lab Test For Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

#149
post #47
post #9

If someone comes to you with a whole lot of pain and loss of function, ignoring it and thinking it's just in their head/they just need to toughen up and get over it because nothing showed up in thier blood reports is something that is almost ubiquitous in the medical field today. I have a connective tissue disorder that was ignored for years because nothing showed up in my blood report and I looked healthy. There is…

> Rarely it is psychological "Medically unexplained physical symptoms (MUPS) are physical symptoms for which no relevant organic pathology can be found. MUPS are very common, comprising up to half of all consultations in primary care and up to one third of those in hospital outpatient clinics.1 Some studies indicate higher prevalence; a landmark study of medical outpatients in North America with new complaints of com…

also, psychological illness can be just as devastating and debilitating as physical illness.

OCD for example leads to years of life lost to disability.

I don't think the CFS crowd realise how fucking annoying they are when they dismiss psychological illness as "all in your head".

Re: Scientists Edge Closer To Lab Test For Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

#150
post #106
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing that currently spazs me out is the Simpson Paradox (Yule–Simpson effect) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson%27s_paradox In short, if your population has two (or more) diseases with similar enough symptoms that they are grouped together, statistical analysis can and does totally fail. And your experiment will produce garbage. So what if Chronic Fatigue Syndrome is really caused by a couple of different th…

That's a very good point. The paper suggests that "severity may be a key variable for subgrouping ME/CFS." So it's possible that there are three different ME/CFS diseases that can be distinguished by cytokine levels. Hopefully once these are separated, statistical analysis will succeed and medical progress would follow. In the bigger picture, you have to wonder how many things that we currently categorize as one dise…

Depression for sure. It's like going to the doctor and being diagnosed with a fever or a tummy ache. Descriptive, but not particularly useful.
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