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Message encryption a 'problem' – UK home secretary

bbc.co.uk

121–130 of 276 posts

Re: Message encryption a 'problem' – UK home secretary

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

actually, funnily enough in the UK you can be arrested for being "drunk in charge of a motor vehicle" even if you aren't in the driver's seat. That can apparently include sleeping one off in the back seat of your car.

as I mentioned in an above reply.. what about campervans?

I'm no legal expert but I think when they're parked up in an appropriate place (private land, layby, that kind of thing) they're considered a temporary residence? Who knows with our convoluted english common law!

Re: Message encryption a 'problem' – UK home secretary

#122
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>For example, You cannot arrest someone for being drunk and having their car keys in their pocket, or even being asleep in the car while drunk. An aside, but this is not true. "According to Alabama state law, Hand was deemed to be in “constructive possession” of the vehicle, and although he wasn’t driving and the vehicle was parked, the keys being in the car was the determinant that triggered the arrest."" https://ww…

from the article. "Hand was parked in a near-campus parking lot, sitting in the driver’s seat with the headlights on and the vehicle cranked, but was asleep with the car in park." "The vehicle cranked" is the key there.. he is shown to be operating the vehicle while under the influence.. If he was asleep in the car without it being on, I doubt they would have a case.

That was just the first one that came up. Critically, it's however the authorities (and it seems to depend on the state) define "operating" the vehicle.

But more to my point, you can still be arrested for DUI while not literally driving/sleeping in the backseat. Given the number of law firm search results that pop up, I'm guessing it's often a way people fight DUIs. So maybe these don't stick.

Re: Message encryption a 'problem' – UK home secretary

#123
Western identity has become so enmeshed with liberalism, progressiveness and democracy that few are willing to step out of that safety zone to question the reality on the ground while those in power continue to rehash tinpot ideas and hysteria about safety.

A similar statement from a third world official would be met with an unequivocal flood of ridicule and accusations of backwardness.

Too many value the comfort of easy judgements. This will be met with apologism, muddying the waters and sophistry.

Re: Message encryption a 'problem' – UK home secretary

#124
post #86
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I happened to catch a Radio 4 documentary [0] on Sunday about the government's "Prevent" strategy, which aims to find evidence of extremism in places such as schools and "nip terrorism in the bud". It featured several worrying stories (including a school calling the police because a boy was talking about a toy gun he'd been given as a present [1]). The most worrying part was when they interviewed a senior police offi…

I have no problem, in principle, with the prevent strategy. If impressionable children are at risk of being brainwashed into a dangerous ideology, then the state should step in, just as it does with any other form of abuse. Hasn't "pre-crime" always been a part of policing, in the form of intelligence gathering and crime prevention? My main concern is schools, and (increasingly) the police acting irrationally and dis…

That's an interesting counter-argument, thanks.

But I still don't think I agree with you. The problem here is that it's left up to police to decide what is a "dangerous ideology". It's not something that you can decide in advance and make objective criteria for. The potential for police to abuse these powers (either through corruption or simply being over-zealous) is enormous. This is how you end up with a Green Party politician being added to the register of "Domestic Extremists", to give one of many examples.

Re: Message encryption a 'problem' – UK home secretary

#125
post #48

There is a growing misconception that it is the role of the government to "keep their citizens safe". Although that it is often the intention of legislation to prevent behaviour which may lead to unsafe situations. For example, making it illegal to drink and drive. You can arrest someone for breaking the law, but never can you arrest someone right up to the point of breaking the law. For example, You cannot arrest so…

In the UK* it is an offence to be "drunk in charge of a vehicle" so you absolutely can be arrested and charged for being asleep whilst drunk in a vehicle. You'll be having to defend yourself in court as to whether it was likely that would could have driven it drunk. In the same way reading communications can be perfectly legal and is often helpful in establishing conspiracy cases. Accepting that Governments can legal…

OK, so I have decided that my example of not having the intention to commit the crime is a bad one as it has been flagged up by everyone regarding how in the UK you can indeed be arrested for this.

heres my solution to the situation in the UK. If you are EVER planning on sleeping it off in the car, get a breathalyzer locking cabinet for your keys.

http://www.alcolockgb.com/

this way you can prove unambiguously that you are unable to operate the vehicle even if you wake up and are over the limit... there.. problem solved. Now lets get back on track about the right to read all communications.

even if they backdoor all chat messages, you can still use your own encryption within that channel. Everyone can do this using free open source software and even custom keyboards in android (I don't use iPhone so I don't know about them).

What happened to good old fashioned spycraft following people around and occasionally plutonium pelleting someone in the leg with an umbrella.

Re: Message encryption a 'problem' – UK home secretary

#126
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> She wants to institute pervasive spying (targeted spying can be achieved by individually planting hardware backdoors, or simply recording the suspect entering their password). I can see targetted spying is possible today. It sounds like she wants targeted spying to be cheaper, and restricted by the judicial system. > But pointing out the harms of pervasive spying is a weak argument, because she didn't deny (or even…

I don't know if you're being deliberately obtuse, but I'll humour you: > It sounds like she wants targeted spying to be cheaper, and restricted by the judicial system. The cheaper that spying is, the more spying gets done - this has been repeatedly shown in many countries, even supposedly free ones, so lets not pretend this will result in the government saving a few bucks on security. It will result in (continued) da…

> First, pointing out that there are harms and she's aware of them, despite not addressing them, because she refuses to disclose her communications.

Though I'm skeptical of how much a 3m42s interview can be said to represent the entirety of her views, I'd say she alludes to the harms by referring to such access as "warranted". That is, authorisation is restricted [because of the costs of unrestricted access].

> Second, that the spying will be used asymmetrically - you, dear citizen, will have all your communications recorded, stored indefinitely, and subject to discovery when some prosecutor or large corporation decides to do away with you.

This law would apply to politicians too, right? If they're suspected of a crime, a warrant could be issued for their communication details.

> But try and find out which corporations are sponsoring which politicians, who owns them, and what kind of deals those politicians are making in your name, and you'll meet a stone wall of silence - just like in the TTIP negotiations.

As mentioned, if those are crimes I expect them to be investigated similarly.

> I don't think this is a stronger argument. In fact, I don't think this is an argument at all.

Sorry yes, my single sentence wasn't the entirety of the argument. I was referring to arguments that rely on the benefits of privacy, rather than defeating a strawman (my, as you say, literal reading of top-level comment).

Re: Message encryption a 'problem' – UK home secretary

#127
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

from the article. "Hand was parked in a near-campus parking lot, sitting in the driver’s seat with the headlights on and the vehicle cranked, but was asleep with the car in park." "The vehicle cranked" is the key there.. he is shown to be operating the vehicle while under the influence.. If he was asleep in the car without it being on, I doubt they would have a case.

That was just the first one that came up. Critically, it's however the authorities (and it seems to depend on the state) define "operating" the vehicle. But more to my point, you can still be arrested for DUI while not literally driving/sleeping in the backseat. Given the number of law firm search results that pop up, I'm guessing it's often a way people fight DUIs. So maybe these don't stick.

ok ok, perhaps this was a bad example of being in a situation which is legal but illegal adjacent, because it seems in some cases it is illegal to sleep in your car while drunk, or even being near your car while drunk. but the crux of my argument remains valid. in those cases you've broken the law (past tense) because in this case those scenarios are considered a breach of the law.

My point remains that the role of government is to pass laws, and the role of law enforcement is to enforce those laws by capturing people who break the law. NOT to arrest people who "might" break the law, because that group contains everyone.

Re: Message encryption a 'problem' – UK home secretary

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's be devil's advocate for a second. The UK's speed cameras are brightly coloured, so there is an intention for them not to be traps - that is, they would prefer road users didn't speed. You cannot seriously argue that they are trying to sneakily catch people. If you get caught speeding by a speed trap which wasn't so visible, it is still your own fault and no-one else's. Either you are in control of your own vehi…

your reply seems very accusatory. I'm not suggesting that there shouldn't be a speed limit, or that people who speed aren't culpable for their actions. I'm talking about the fairly well-known incidence of cameras on sharp bends or that are hard to see at the bottom of hills (or worse yet, police pulled up on ramps on the side of the road) where people who are speeding will see them and slam on their brakes. This is w…

I'm sorry if I came across as accusatory - my use of 'you' was meant in general, rather than to the poster in particular. But, I was being accusatory to people in general who speed. I'm not sure how to point the finger of blame without being accusatory!

Take even your 'well known' examples of speed traps 'known to cause an increase in traffic accidents' (do you have a source?) - the people who were speeding and slammed on their brakes must share most, if not all, of the blame if they caused an accident as a result. Sure, they were reacting to a speed camera, but would the results have been so different had they been reacting to a real risk, like a person in the road or an unexpected obstacle? The root cause is that they were driving too fast for the road, their reactions or their vehicle.

I have no knowledge or insight into the motivations of the police, that may be an interesting discussion but it's not part of the issue that I was trying to discuss.

Speeding is such an odd law, I find it fascinating how so many people try to assign blame away from the speeders. Just last week, a relation of mine was complaining that they got a speeding ticket because they were caught driving at 77mph on a motorway, which they thought was unfair because, in their words, "77 is meant to be the leeway that police give before they stop you".

I'm no saint when driving, I just wish that speeders could take responsibility for their actions. If you get caught, don't whine about it being anyone else's fault.

Re: Message encryption a 'problem' – UK home secretary

#129
post #51
post #16

Oh god, I despair of this country. After a decade of conservative I have never been so disillusioned. I feel like I am stuck in a rut or like, I don't belong here. It is a horrible feeling. Deep down I know that the government is stuck in 1740 and by the time that millennials walk the halls of power, their parents will have signed away all their rights. The very last thing I love is my country, that is for sure.

I am in the same boat. I am staying at the moment because of my work situation and my family, but I have an inevitable sense that should either of those situations change, particularly the former, I'll be actively looking to move out. The war on reasoning and facts is too intense, and even though I'm largely sheltered from it where I live and work (almost everyone I know has similar views to me on these matters), it'…

It is happening simultaneously almost everywhere. Different countries are at different stages, but it doesn't look like anywhere is a safe haven. Having lived in several countries over the years, the grass is rarely greener as a whole - some parts are, and they may matter more to you, but the western world is mostly on par on everything.

Where did you think of going?

Re: Message encryption a 'problem' – UK home secretary

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK government has a habit of ignoring its own experts, to the degree of firing them if they give advice the government don't like. Drug policy is another area that suffers from this approach.

I was just about to mention this. For anyone interested Professor David Nutt[0] was fired from his role as the government's chief drug advisor after claiming ecstasy and LSD were less dangerous than alcohol. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/oct/30/drugs-advis...

The comments from Alan Johnson, then Home Secretary, are rather telling:

> He was asked to go because he cannot be both a government adviser and a campaigner against government policy. [...] As for his comments about horse riding being more dangerous than ecstasy, which you quote with such reverence, it is of course a political rather than a scientific point.[0]

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/nov/02/drug-policy...

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