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Data Structures for Coding Interviews

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Re: Data Structures for Coding Interviews

#41

Post by Mutinix »

j2kun wrote: post #22
Mutinix wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's unfortunate, but all the companies are doing this. Here's what a Google lead said in a tweet: > Hello, my name is Tim. I'm a lead at Google with over 30 years coding experience and I need to look up how to get length of a python string. DHH: > Hello, my name is David. I would fail to write bubble sort on a whiteboard. I look code up on the internet all the time. I don't do riddles. Max Howell: > Google: 90% of o…

There's a difference between not being able to write bubble sort and realizing that looking it up is a better use of your time. But when it actually comes time to do something you can't copy/paste off the internet, what do you expect a programmer who can't reinvent a half-decent bubble sort to do? The interview is to convince the other person that you can think logically about programs. Bubble sort is a low, low bar,…

Maybe he's being hyperbolic, maybe not. But that's entirely besides the point.

I'm absolutely certain that there are many, many engineers who failed interviews because they couldn't write a zig-zag string and could yet come up with good solutions to problems at a real company.

> what do you expect a programmer who can't reinvent a half-decent bubble sort to do

But interviews aren't testing for that. The guy who invented Homebrew was judged by a Google engineer to be not good enough. Heck, I bet the engineer interviewing him probably had his/her entire dev machine setup via Homebrew.

DHH invented Ruby on Rails, which was used at Twitter for what, 4+ years? And yet if he anonymously gave an interview at Twitter they would probably reject him because he can't find a cycle in a linked list in 30 minutes.

> The interview is to convince the other person that you can think logically about programs.

It's supposed to be about that. The modern CS interview is, however, absolutely not about that. It's whether or not you've grinded through CtCI enough to be able to answer something taken from a vast pool of useless questions.

Tell me, is the Homebrew guy just really not good enough? Do you really think he does not know how to think about programs logically?

Re: Data Structures for Coding Interviews

#43

Post by numbsafari »

ing33k wrote: post #13
gameguy43 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

:( Ok, time to rethink the email opt-ins.

I would have ignored that advice if your target audience were non tech users.

My wife is a non-technical user. She has just about given up on using the internet because of the prevalence of these annoyances.

Re: Data Structures for Coding Interviews

#44

Post by seanmcdirmid »

0xADEADBEE wrote: post #11
nichochar wrote: post #7

> Don't worry—we'll skip the convoluted academic jargon and proofs. Aaaaand this is why I hate using this as a method for interviewing. I actually care a great deal about people that care about that stuff. I would rather you know all the principles and can reason your way back up, however slowly, than repeat something you've practiced enough for an interview. I understand the author really only wants to help people,…

...and we've come full circle. The industry demonstrably brought this upon itself by cargo-culting Google's interview process; combine an environment where people are expected to know how to invert a BST for a Django or Rails job with a group of people who are naturally inclined to optimise and shortcut and this is exactly what you can expect to happen. From a personal perspective, if I were to decide to switch jobs,…

Hey, Microsoft was doing this long before google even existed.

Re: Data Structures for Coding Interviews

#45

Post by Mutinix »

smnscu wrote: post #38
Mutinix wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's unfortunate, but all the companies are doing this. Here's what a Google lead said in a tweet: > Hello, my name is Tim. I'm a lead at Google with over 30 years coding experience and I need to look up how to get length of a python string. DHH: > Hello, my name is David. I would fail to write bubble sort on a whiteboard. I look code up on the internet all the time. I don't do riddles. Max Howell: > Google: 90% of o…

Ah, the perennial apologetics of weaponized mediocrity. If you can't write a simple recursive algorithm that swaps two values (Max Howell), two nested for loops (DHH), or show me that you used Python at least once (uhh length? yes, there is this builtin, I forgot its name...), why would I want to hire you over someone who has seen a computer before? And to avoid being called hypocritical, here's off the top of my hea…

> why would I want to hire you over someone who has seen a computer before?

Because, you know, they invented Ruby on Rails and Homebrew? Incredible, really. You were so adamant on being hostile that you managed to put yourself over Max Howell and DHH in a couple of sentences. These people have made valuable contributions to the tech industry as it stands today. This is a fact and not an opinion. They invented Homebrew and Ruby on Rails.

Good job, you solved the problems and are more likely to be hired by Google than Max Howell. Except he created the most popular package manager in OSX history and companies still can't see that.

Re: Data Structures for Coding Interviews

#46

Post by arwhatever »

axaxs wrote: post #16

Maybe it's just me, but I hate these interviews. Why? Because it excites me to do interesting things. Then I inevitably just end up writing REST APIs.

I've had the same thought - if I actually did the interview-type algorithms and multi-system scalability challenges on a day-to-day basis, it might just be a super cool job.

Re: Data Structures for Coding Interviews

#47

Post by neerkumar »

gameguy43 wrote: post #40
neerkumar wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Price seems expensive to me as well. In data science there is a similar site which has become pretty popular if you are interviewing in those top tech companies, but it is cheaper. As the guy above was suggesting, that data science site does personalized feedback and that justifies the high price. Otherwise, the way it is now, it feels like it should be priced similarly to CTCI.

What's the data science site!

http://datascientistjobinterview.com

Re: Data Structures for Coding Interviews

#48

Post by thaumasiotes »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #44
0xADEADBEE wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...and we've come full circle. The industry demonstrably brought this upon itself by cargo-culting Google's interview process; combine an environment where people are expected to know how to invert a BST for a Django or Rails job with a group of people who are naturally inclined to optimise and shortcut and this is exactly what you can expect to happen. From a personal perspective, if I were to decide to switch jobs,…

Hey, Microsoft was doing this long before google even existed.

I thought the traditional Microsoft interview was more along the lines of "how many golf balls fit in an airplane?"?

Re: Data Structures for Coding Interviews

#49

Post by narak »

Mutinix wrote: post #41
j2kun wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a difference between not being able to write bubble sort and realizing that looking it up is a better use of your time. But when it actually comes time to do something you can't copy/paste off the internet, what do you expect a programmer who can't reinvent a half-decent bubble sort to do? The interview is to convince the other person that you can think logically about programs. Bubble sort is a low, low bar,…

Maybe he's being hyperbolic, maybe not. But that's entirely besides the point. I'm absolutely certain that there are many, many engineers who failed interviews because they couldn't write a zig-zag string and could yet come up with good solutions to problems at a real company. > what do you expect a programmer who can't reinvent a half-decent bubble sort to do But interviews aren't testing for that. The guy who inven…

Good CS fundamentals are important because they are transferable skill to a wide array of problems a startup may face. Just because someone wrote an impressive framework or library doesn't mean given a complex problem outside of their known domain (web framework design or package management tool), they would be have the necessary background to solve it. With strong math and CS knowledge, you can reason through almost any problem.

Re: Data Structures for Coding Interviews

#50

Post by bastijn »

I once walked into an interview with such questions. On the first question I asked them why they asked the question. The interviewer looked puzzled and asked me to finish the question. I again asked him why, what part of my job would require it. He couldn't answer that question whilst he was an engineer at the department I was interviewed for. I asked a follow-up question if he had the same questions when he joined, and if he ever felt the need for that knowledge particularly. He responded it was good to know, companies like Google and Amazon did the same. I walked out five minutes later thanking them for their time. I could have answered the question easily but what for?

In the off chance that someone stumbles along and blindly copies this into interview questions for his company. Think again, realize what your company needs and tailor your recruiting process for that instead of copying stuff others do.

Thanks.

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