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Apple’s Silence in China Sets a Dangerous Precedent

nytimes.com

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Re: Apple’s Silence in China Sets a Dangerous Precedent

#81

Post by Spooky23 »

maus42 wrote: post #59
Spooky23 wrote: post #31

Why does a western moral standard give Apple the right to break Chinese law? Where do you draw that line? What US laws are ok to break? Should Apple export other US laws like labor standards? If so, Alabama or California law? Like it or not, globalism means that we're participants in a huge global community. Part of being in a community is respecting your neighbors, even when you disagree with them.

As many others commented elsewhere, moral relativism is not very robust ethical system in a global community. If you ever have kids, why would you teach them some morals over others? Would you teach that some moral standard (pick any! say, "it's not generally okay to steal others' stuff") would just stop by the virtue that they just happen move to different jurisdiction where the government is not interested in e.g.…

I don't disagree, but I won't walk into the home of an acquaintance and tell him why he's wrong either.

There's obviously a line there. But a computer company isn't going to win against a police state.

Re: Apple’s Silence in China Sets a Dangerous Precedent

#82

Post by ams6110 »

rayiner wrote: post #80
sriku wrote: post #12

Apple stood for privacy in the US where privacy is part of law. It didn't stand by privacy in China where privacy in some forms is prohibited as part of law. Asserting the US law in China would discount China's sovereignty, implicitly declaring "your principles are inferior to ours". A global company needs to be sensitive to these political/cultural differences and accommodate them. Even in the US where "privacy" is…

> A global company needs to be sensitive to these political/cultural differences and accommodate them. Global companies are instrumental in transmitting western values to the rest of the world. You can't antagonize host countries but at the same time you can't ignore the arc of the moral universe. Domestically, a great example is the economic repercussion for southern states that tried to pass trans bathroom laws. Co…

They did what was right.

They did what was popular. That it was right was a coincidence.

Re: Apple’s Silence in China Sets a Dangerous Precedent

#84

Post by Inconel »

Steko wrote: post #48
chj wrote: post #25

I don't think Apple has any other choice, except to open up iOS system so that it doesn't have the responsibility to censor apps. It's interesting to see how Apple's centralized control turns out to be a convenient tool for authoritarian governments.

This is the point John Gruber made: To me, the more interesting question isn’t whether Apple should be selling its products in China, but rather whether Apple should continue to make the App Store the only way to install apps on iOS devices. A full-on “install whatever you want” policy isn’t going to happen, but something like Gatekeeper on MacOS could. Keep iOS App Store-only by default. Add a preference in Settings…

As someone who just recently started using an iOS device and finds the lack of sideloading mildly annoying, can anyone with some expertise in iOS security chime in with whether or not allowing sideloading of apps on iOS represents any serious security implications for iPhones? From my admittedly amateurish understanding, iOS sandboxing is significantly more robust than Android, is this just a way for Apple to maintain total control of, and profit off of, apps, or does this policy have a basis in security as well?

Re: Apple’s Silence in China Sets a Dangerous Precedent

#85

Post by smallnamespace »

_ptgt wrote: post #26
sriku wrote: post #12

Apple stood for privacy in the US where privacy is part of law. It didn't stand by privacy in China where privacy in some forms is prohibited as part of law. Asserting the US law in China would discount China's sovereignty, implicitly declaring "your principles are inferior to ours". A global company needs to be sensitive to these political/cultural differences and accommodate them. Even in the US where "privacy" is…

This amount of cultural relativism is silly and frankly just plain ignorant. China doesn't restrict free speech for cultural reasons. The CCP restricts free speech because it fears losing its ruling status.

While you may be right about the CCP's motives, China has its own long history of political thought, including the correct role of the State and public dissent. Guess what? For the vast majority of Chinese history, rulers viewed public dissent as tantamount to open rebellion and reacted accordingly.

Political systems are in part products of their culture. Free speech is not part of the cultural or political history of China, as it is in the West.

Re: Apple’s Silence in China Sets a Dangerous Precedent

#86

Post by partisan »

differentView wrote: post #63
partisan wrote: post #34

The day after Apple stands up to the Chinese government, Foxconn will be producing phones that no longer have the Apple logo, but will otherwise be Apple iPhones. There is nothing Apple can do. In the name of profits, they have put their entire business in the hands of the Chinese government.

>The day after Apple stands up to the Chinese government, Foxconn will be producing phones that no longer have the Apple logo, but will otherwise be Apple iPhones. That's just silly. Foxconn would do nothing of the sort.

I don't know if it is just silly. Their IP is in the wind.

The third shift is a real phenomenon for brands manufacturing in China even under good circumstances. I am simply extrapolating from that reality.

Re: Apple’s Silence in China Sets a Dangerous Precedent

#87

Post by olalonde »

schoen wrote: post #52
_ptgt wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This amount of cultural relativism is silly and frankly just plain ignorant. China doesn't restrict free speech for cultural reasons. The CCP restricts free speech because it fears losing its ruling status.

While I agree with attempts to prevent governments from controlling speech, have spent a fair amount of time working on that, and was disturbed by Apple's role here, I don't think the dichotomy you present works as cleanly as you suggest. State power and culture shape and reinforce each other in an extremely complex way.

That's true. I lived in China for a few years and was surprised to find out that most people seemed relatively (if not very) happy with the CCP. Ignorance plays a role but it's mainly that they value economic growth (and therefore, political stability) over anything else. Free speech would be nice but when you go from near starvation to owning a house and a car, you learn what economic growth does and start to value it.

Re: Apple’s Silence in China Sets a Dangerous Precedent

#88

Post by qyv »

sriku wrote: post #12

Apple stood for privacy in the US where privacy is part of law. It didn't stand by privacy in China where privacy in some forms is prohibited as part of law. Asserting the US law in China would discount China's sovereignty, implicitly declaring "your principles are inferior to ours". A global company needs to be sensitive to these political/cultural differences and accommodate them. Even in the US where "privacy" is…

Apple is free to this move for business reasons, that is certainly true. But they can no longer also claim the moral high ground as a defender of personal liberty. Human rights do not stop at international borders. They cannot have it both ways.

Re: Apple’s Silence in China Sets a Dangerous Precedent

#89

Post by prewett »

rayiner wrote: post #80
sriku wrote: post #12

Apple stood for privacy in the US where privacy is part of law. It didn't stand by privacy in China where privacy in some forms is prohibited as part of law. Asserting the US law in China would discount China's sovereignty, implicitly declaring "your principles are inferior to ours". A global company needs to be sensitive to these political/cultural differences and accommodate them. Even in the US where "privacy" is…

> A global company needs to be sensitive to these political/cultural differences and accommodate them. Global companies are instrumental in transmitting western values to the rest of the world. You can't antagonize host countries but at the same time you can't ignore the arc of the moral universe. Domestically, a great example is the economic repercussion for southern states that tried to pass trans bathroom laws. Co…

So by that logic, Chinese companies should push Chinese values on the rest of the world. Are you okay with that? And if not, what makes Western values special? Absent an independent moral authority (i.e. God of some sort), there's no way to say that Western values even should be spread. Absent an independent moral authority, pushing your values on everyone else is exactly what the Chinese government is doing.

The trans bathroom laws are a good example. What makes your position "right"? The other position happens to go against some of your core values (presumably), but that doesn't make it "wrong." Maybe your core values are "wrong" or at least incomplete.

There's a lot of people that are trying to push their values on people under the guise of "it's right." Ironically, these people will say they want people to have the freedom to live the way they want. Trans bathrooms, homosexual marriage: well, maybe I don't want to live in a world where I have to put up with that. Too bad, I don't get a choice, because "it's right."

You'd better have concrete direction from the independent moral authority (i.e. God) if you're going to push your values on other people, because otherwise it's just intolerant. "I feel strongly about this" != "it's right"

Re: Apple’s Silence in China Sets a Dangerous Precedent

#90

Post by prewett »

npunt wrote: post #74

Worth pointing out that this happened on the same day that TestFlight increases the number of beta testers from 2k to 10k. If someone open sources an iOS VPN app, you've now got 10k people that can sideload an app via the efforts of a single person with an apple developer account. Obviously this is a loophole and not meant as a mainstream solution, but past solutions to getting around the great firewall (including VP…

I think anyone can download Xcode and compile to their device, so there's nothing stopping an open-source VPN app.
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