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One Billion Dollars Short, Bill Ackman, and the Siege Of Herbalife (2015)

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31–40 of 144 posts

Re: One Billion Dollars Short, Bill Ackman, and the Siege Of Herbalife (2015)

#31
I use to work in legislative affairs for the natural health industry. It's all one big scam. I try to explain it like this:

Company A sells natural remedies, etc. Company B is a news organization which reports on natural health remedies, and also advertises for those companies, et. Nonprofit C is a consumer watchdog organization that investigates and promotes natural health. They are supported by the natural health industry, and community. Trade Association D is a group of natural health corporations that lobby the government, and fight bad press.

The trick is, A, B, C, and D are all working together, in collusion, with the same investors, same backers, and each supports the other. It's so pervasive it's astounding, and extremely difficult for consumers to see through to factual information.

Re: One Billion Dollars Short, Bill Ackman, and the Siege Of Herbalife (2015)

#32
post #26

Explain to me how this is not market manipulation and securities fraud?

There is nothing fraudulent about shorting a stock, telling people you shorted the stock, and telling them why you shorted the stock. (the same goes for going long a stock)

Correct. It becomes decisively illegal if you create fake identities to similarly spout your nonsense.

Re: One Billion Dollars Short, Bill Ackman, and the Siege Of Herbalife (2015)

#33

I use to work in legislative affairs for the natural health industry. It's all one big scam. I try to explain it like this: Company A sells natural remedies, etc. Company B is a news organization which reports on natural health remedies, and also advertises for those companies, et. Nonprofit C is a consumer watchdog organization that investigates and promotes natural health. They are supported by the natural health i…

Seems like a sure thing to short the piss out of an enterprise like this and wage a comprehensive campaign of activism and consumer education against it. With rationality on your side, how could you lose?

Re: One Billion Dollars Short, Bill Ackman, and the Siege Of Herbalife (2015)

#34
post #3

Does anyone know if there have been more developments to this story in the two years since this article was written?

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/03/06/financiers-figh...

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-03-01/for-bette...

Re: One Billion Dollars Short, Bill Ackman, and the Siege Of Herbalife (2015)

#35
post #20
post #4

Hard to beat the hedge fund compensation model of fee on the way up, fee on the way down. Agnostic to his Herbalife bet, Ackman "has widely underperformed the S&P 500 since its EOY 2012 inception: 7.1% since inception net of fees vs. 84% for the S&P 500. Their original flagship fund's (2004 inception) track record is outstanding with returns of ~20% per annum." So his first fund killed it, he made a name for himself,…

I find it almost too ironic to see a hedge fund manager righteously calling out another business model.

Herbalife's business model is "pyramid scheme", though. It's worse in basically every possible way, regardless of how poorly you view hedge funds.

Re: One Billion Dollars Short, Bill Ackman, and the Siege Of Herbalife (2015)

#36
post #33

I use to work in legislative affairs for the natural health industry. It's all one big scam. I try to explain it like this: Company A sells natural remedies, etc. Company B is a news organization which reports on natural health remedies, and also advertises for those companies, et. Nonprofit C is a consumer watchdog organization that investigates and promotes natural health. They are supported by the natural health i…

Seems like a sure thing to short the piss out of an enterprise like this and wage a comprehensive campaign of activism and consumer education against it. With rationality on your side, how could you lose?

> with rationality on your side, how could you lose?

Look at south Africa, multi vitamins, and hiv/aids denialism. It's pretty fascinating, human toll aside.

Re: One Billion Dollars Short, Bill Ackman, and the Siege Of Herbalife (2015)

#37
I've got the feeling this thread is full of people that drank the BS koolaid of herbalife.

They either sell snake oil products, or protein shakes that are 10x cheaper at Costco.

I've known people desperate enough to start selling that crap (as well as others-their friends-that have to buy it just due to friendship), so please stop spreading MLM scams.

Re: One Billion Dollars Short, Bill Ackman, and the Siege Of Herbalife (2015)

#38
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may not like it, but it is not necessarily a scam. Some of the posts by Bronte capital mentioned in the article http://brontecapital.blogspot.com/2015/06/herbalife-very-lon... http://brontecapital.blogspot.com/2016/07/herbalife-and-end-...

It's unfortunate that you are being downvoted - especially since you are citing John Hempton's excellent work on the topic. It's really worth a read and an interesting counterpoint to Ackman's analysis.

Long story short "The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent.”

Re: One Billion Dollars Short, Bill Ackman, and the Siege Of Herbalife (2015)

#39
post #33

I use to work in legislative affairs for the natural health industry. It's all one big scam. I try to explain it like this: Company A sells natural remedies, etc. Company B is a news organization which reports on natural health remedies, and also advertises for those companies, et. Nonprofit C is a consumer watchdog organization that investigates and promotes natural health. They are supported by the natural health i…

Seems like a sure thing to short the piss out of an enterprise like this and wage a comprehensive campaign of activism and consumer education against it. With rationality on your side, how could you lose?

>With rationality on your side, how could you lose?

Hahahhaha. Great joke. Sadly, there are and probably always will be a lot of ignorant/gullible people. As PT Barnum said, "there's a sucker born every minute."

Re: One Billion Dollars Short, Bill Ackman, and the Siege Of Herbalife (2015)

#40
I live and work in Utah, which, for not completely clear to me reasons, is home to a lot of MLMs. Nu Skin, Usana, Xango, doTerra, Young Living, Jamberry (and those are the ones I can just name off the top of my head) are all headquartered here.

For an area that in many ways is punching above its weight class in terms of tech companies, I occasionally have nagging (possibly unfounded?) concerns in the back of my head that one day a lot of these companies will be a hindrance on the continued growth here. I know some people already view Utah mostly as the home of MLMs and I don't know if that does much for attracting forward looking tech investment. That said, these companies have brought a ton of jobs and has certainly helped fund the growth in the area and I have worked with and met a lot of people who seem pretty decent.

While many of these companies aren't "evil", I think the MLM is probably one of the most insidious dark design patterns around. I think the best way of how these companies primarily operate is like the Cassette/CD clubs of a few years past. A small fee gets you a decent amount of "up front value" (Join the club for $30 and get 30% off your first order!) with the expectation that you won't order anything else or forget to cancel the yearly membership fee. This is, of course, all made worse by the fact that is often friends and family who are peddling the high margin health and dietary products with questionable efficacy. Like I said, I don't know if I can call it an outright scam (I know a few people who really like there shakes and supplements and swear by them), but it does drive strange incentives...

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