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Apple’s Silence in China Sets a Dangerous Precedent

nytimes.com

41–50 of 209 posts

Re: Apple’s Silence in China Sets a Dangerous Precedent

#41
It makes no sense for Apple to do anything but comply. Its only real options are to manipulate corrupt government officials (which is against US law) or leave and:

- There are plenty of competitors in China and its people will continue to be well served by them should Apple choose to leave.

- The people of China aren't going to benefit at all from any Apple departure.

- Apple is a publicly traded company; its duty is to its shareholders. 20% of Apple's Q2 17 revenue came from China: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/pdfs/Q2FY17DataSummary.pdf

So leaving is also not an option, an attempt to do so would be pointless and crater the stock so bad investors would revolt.

The article suggests a "public fight" but that seems incredibly naïve to me. China just doesn't work that way. The fight was lost when the GFW went up.

Re: Apple’s Silence in China Sets a Dangerous Precedent

#42
post #6

I'll repost my comment from the other thread that got flagged for being a dupe: They absolutely stake out moral positions on issues like this all the time. The difference is they only do it in the West where rule of law prevails and they can actually exert influence. They've done it with various anti-LGBT efforts that have taken place around the US, they've done it with the fight with the FBI and they're doing it rig…

This situation underlines and ideological stance that we all take for granted but that actually went questioned in the past:

That business and human rights are perpendicular issues. Actually it all started from the idea that free market causes a freer society. I think it is now clear that this causality is not true, but now proponents of unregulated free markets changed their stance to "Meh, that's the way we have done for decades, let's just keep that way."

My stance is that a global free-market is a good objective and should be encouraged, that borders should gradually disappear. However, encouraging goods and capital flow through otherwise tight borders is not helping reach that goal.

My theory is that 4 important things cross borders: goods, money, people and information. All 4 must have the same level of freedom. Imbalances should be addressed. For instance, China does not easily let people and information flow in and out of its territory, yet it lets funds flow and even subsidizes goods going out of it (Which is why Shenzhen to LA shipping can be cheaper than SF to LA). We should link these issues together. Either by funding and helping people and information cross these borders or, if impossible, by taxing goods and funds.

Actually a country that prevents people going out of it but let money go in and goods go out is the opposite of what the theory of democratic capitalism is about. It is a setup that allows outsourcing slavery. Free market in that case is not a perpendicular issue to this, but the very cause of the problem.

Re: Apple’s Silence in China Sets a Dangerous Precedent

#44
post #6

I'll repost my comment from the other thread that got flagged for being a dupe: They absolutely stake out moral positions on issues like this all the time. The difference is they only do it in the West where rule of law prevails and they can actually exert influence. They've done it with various anti-LGBT efforts that have taken place around the US, they've done it with the fight with the FBI and they're doing it rig…

> Try to foment and support an insurgency or revolution or just invade them yourselves.

This is historically terrible advice.

Re: Apple’s Silence in China Sets a Dangerous Precedent

#45
post #28
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's not their job to do it. It's nobody's job to do it. They still potentially can fix the problem. Wouldn't it be great if they used their influence to help fix things? I agree that there's a "choose your battles" aspect to this. Considering what Apple did with the San Bernandino case, this seems (ideologically) right, but the potential losses are pretty high.

Google and Facebook took this stance and look where it got us? China just made their own bloody search engine and social network. We need to stop looking to corporations as doing the jobs our government should be doing.

I don’t think facebook took any stance.

Chinese gov’t just recognized how much data has on its users.

Re: Apple’s Silence in China Sets a Dangerous Precedent

#46
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple has most certainly taken a moral stance in the past as you point out. The galling part of the article to me was "The company has not fully tested its political and economic leverage in China." It is not Apple's job to take a political stance. They can if they want, as evidenced by the examples you laid out, but there is no requirement. If the NYT wants to talk politics and precedence, perhaps they should direct…

it's not their job to do it. It's nobody's job to do it. They still potentially can fix the problem. Wouldn't it be great if they used their influence to help fix things? I agree that there's a "choose your battles" aspect to this. Considering what Apple did with the San Bernandino case, this seems (ideologically) right, but the potential losses are pretty high.

Depending on your viewpoint, it's not even a problem. Telling China that their government is objectively wrong and should do things differently is pretty hypocritical unless we'd accept them telling us that our respective governments are wrong and should change.

Re: Apple’s Silence in China Sets a Dangerous Precedent

#47
post #6

I'll repost my comment from the other thread that got flagged for being a dupe: They absolutely stake out moral positions on issues like this all the time. The difference is they only do it in the West where rule of law prevails and they can actually exert influence. They've done it with various anti-LGBT efforts that have taken place around the US, they've done it with the fight with the FBI and they're doing it rig…

> Apple isn't a vessel for anyone's foreign policy objectives and it isn't a substitute for the state.

You're absolutely right, and you should follow this to its logical conclusion. Apple only does what's in its best interests. The company consistently acts to strengthen its brand whenever possible to make more money.

It's irrational to expect a corporation, whether it's Apple or any other entity, to act ethically. Every decision they make, from sponsoring LGBT events to pushing back against the FBI, is made carefully with their brand in mind. Imagine what would happened, for instance, if Apple hadn't pushed back against the FBI. Their customers would have been enraged, just as they are now.

The real question is this: What would you expect Apple to do as a shareholder?

Re: Apple’s Silence in China Sets a Dangerous Precedent

#48
post #25

I don't think Apple has any other choice, except to open up iOS system so that it doesn't have the responsibility to censor apps. It's interesting to see how Apple's centralized control turns out to be a convenient tool for authoritarian governments.

This is the point John Gruber made:

To me, the more interesting question isn’t whether Apple should be selling its products in China, but rather whether Apple should continue to make the App Store the only way to install apps on iOS devices. A full-on “install whatever you want” policy isn’t going to happen, but something like Gatekeeper on MacOS could.

Keep iOS App Store-only by default. Add a preference in Settings to allow apps to be downloaded from “identified developers” (those with an Apple developer certificate) in addition to the App Store. In that scenario, the App Store is no longer a single choke point for all native apps on the device.

The App Store was envisioned as a means for Apple to maintain strict control over the software running on iOS devices. But in a totalitarian state like China (or perhaps Russia, next), it becomes a source of control for the totalitarian regime.

I don’t expect Apple to do this. They’d rather deal with the negative consequences of the App Store as a choke point than give up the benefits (including the profits) of maintaining complete control over all software on the platform.1 But if you’re angry about Apple’s role in this VPN crackdown in China, I suggest you direct your anger at the App Store as the single source for third-party software.

Re: Apple’s Silence in China Sets a Dangerous Precedent

#49
post #6

I'll repost my comment from the other thread that got flagged for being a dupe: They absolutely stake out moral positions on issues like this all the time. The difference is they only do it in the West where rule of law prevails and they can actually exert influence. They've done it with various anti-LGBT efforts that have taken place around the US, they've done it with the fight with the FBI and they're doing it rig…

If there's an explanation based on principles, and one based on tribalism, generally the tribalism one has more predictive power.

http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anything...

Apple's leaders take strong stances in those American political positions because those stances are against the tribal outgroup of the people who control Apple.

The tribal outgroup is, of course, American conservatives - especially social conservatives and Christians.

Of course any reasonable person would acknowledge that China's government is far more guilty of all the same wrongs as American conservatives, and many more. However, China isn't the outgroup of the tribe that controls Apple. They are a "far group" - just some people on the other side of the world doing terrible things.

What's more, they're non-white, which in the far-left view means the real moral responsibility for their actions must be traced back to the decisions of a white man some time in the colonial past. Ultimately all wrongs point to the true tribal outgroup - white male Western conservatives.

So Apple's leaders don't really care emotionally about anything China's government is doing. Because the tribal lines don't point to caring.

]Fighting against American conservatives is really rewarding, in self-image and social standing, and it doesn't cost or risk much business-wise, and it feels good to make them suffer because activists don't like them anyway. Fighting against China isn't rewarding at all, and costs a lot more, and people are trained to see them as hypo-agentic victims since they're non-white in the first place. That's the difference.

Re: Apple’s Silence in China Sets a Dangerous Precedent

#50
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's not their job to do it. It's nobody's job to do it. They still potentially can fix the problem. Wouldn't it be great if they used their influence to help fix things? I agree that there's a "choose your battles" aspect to this. Considering what Apple did with the San Bernandino case, this seems (ideologically) right, but the potential losses are pretty high.

It's nobody's job to do it. What I read from that is that you do not think that it is a more appropriate role for, say, the U. S. government. If that is the case, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. My POV is that to a large extent the U.s government has that leeway because they don't have financial incentives/disincentives to steer their decisions (this falls apart when viewed in a larger economic sense,…

Sure, if you are an US citizen, you can argue that it should be US government's job to represent your ideals in the wider world. But your government is not the only party responsible for representing your moral or political positions in the world.

For example, the US government collectively is not particularly famous for 100% morally upstanding behavior. Granted, the US behaves often better than other great powers, and certainly it represents many ideals of democracy and liberty more than other contending powers. But consider the mess that was Iran-Contra affair or the various regimes ranging from unsavory authoritarianism to sheer terrorism (with "disappearances" and torture) CIA supported in Latin America in the name of anti-communism. (God forbid someone propose an idea of land reform in South America or advancing workers' and natives' rights against UFC, despite that's how numerous European countries avoided communism.) Did these actions (and various other questionable shenanigans the US government has been partial to) represent your ethical positions?

It's everyone's job to do it, and what any government does is only part of that. For example, you mentioned AAPL stock owners. According to any sane ethical system, the moral duty of any individual CEO or a member of board or stock owner as a human person with rights and corresponding duties to act ethically overrides their financial or legal duty to maximize corporate profits.

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