Explain to me how this is not market manipulation and securities fraud?
One Billion Dollars Short, Bill Ackman, and the Siege Of Herbalife (2015)
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Re: One Billion Dollars Short, Bill Ackman, and the Siege Of Herbalife (2015)
#12John Oliver discussing Herbalife https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6MwGeOm8iI Bill Ackmann on Herbalife https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQc6L4ieMwo Almost 60% of their distributors were latinos ( http://articles.latimes.com/2013/feb/15/business/la-fi-herba... ). The lengthy presentation countering Pershing Square's accusations which contained this fact ( http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/ABEA-48ZAJ9/229776353...…
http://brontecapital.blogspot.com/2015/06/herbalife-very-lon...
http://brontecapital.blogspot.com/2016/07/herbalife-and-end-...
Re: One Billion Dollars Short, Bill Ackman, and the Siege Of Herbalife (2015)
#13ON WHEN ACKMAN CALLED HIM IN 2003:
"I'm telling you he's like a crybaby in the schoolyard. I went to a tough school in Queens, you know, and they used to beat up the little Jewish boys. He was like one of the little Jewish boys crying ..."
ON ACKMAN AS A FRIEND:
"He's the quintessential example of 'if you want a friend on Wall Street, get a dog.'"
ON HAVING DINNER WITH ACKMAN:
"As far as I'm concerned, he wanted to have dinner with me. I couldn't figure out if he was the most sanctimonious guy I met in my life or just arrogant and that's Ackman."
ON ACKMAN DONATING ANY HLF PROFITS TO CHARITY:
"He talks about charity. That's complete bullshit!"
ON ACKMAN SAYING ICAHN IS A GOOD INVESTOR:
"I appreciate you, Bill, calling me a 'great investor', but unfortunately I cannot say the same for you."
BONUS: ON WHEN SCOTT WAPNER ASKED HIM IF HE'S LONG HLF:
"I want to say what I want to say and I'm not going to talk about my Herbalife position because you want to bully me ... I don't give a damn about what you want to know. I want to talk about what I want to talk about ... You can say what the hell you want. I'm going to talk about what Ackman just said about me, not about Herbalife ... I'll talk about Herbalife when I goddamn want to ... I'm never going on a show with you again, that's for damn sure, OK."
Re: One Billion Dollars Short, Bill Ackman, and the Siege Of Herbalife (2015)
#14Does anyone know if there have been more developments to this story in the two years since this article was written?
Herbalife was too rich for the FTC to find it an illegal financial scheme, subsequently and simultaneously Bill Ackman got squeezed pretty hard on that and several of his other bets. He still has a group of followers because he's rich and has a nice pedigree, but he has fallen from glory pretty hard and his calls don't matter anymore. One of the best short sells these days is to short everything in his portfolio when…
Re: One Billion Dollars Short, Bill Ackman, and the Siege Of Herbalife (2015)
#15Hard to beat the hedge fund compensation model of fee on the way up, fee on the way down. Agnostic to his Herbalife bet, Ackman "has widely underperformed the S&P 500 since its EOY 2012 inception: 7.1% since inception net of fees vs. 84% for the S&P 500. Their original flagship fund's (2004 inception) track record is outstanding with returns of ~20% per annum." So his first fund killed it, he made a name for himself,…
No, it's because of the simple fact that you can't predict the future. That sleazeballs can make it even worse by making funds that pretend that they had yields before they even existed (or were active only in a theoretical sense with a few bucks in it as a fig leaf and the other 999 that got axed you'll never hear about) is taken as a given.
That's just the 1024 envelope trick at a higher level.
Re: One Billion Dollars Short, Bill Ackman, and the Siege Of Herbalife (2015)
#16Explain to me how this is not market manipulation and securities fraud?
Explain to me the case that it could be considered as such?
Re: One Billion Dollars Short, Bill Ackman, and the Siege Of Herbalife (2015)
#17Re: One Billion Dollars Short, Bill Ackman, and the Siege Of Herbalife (2015)
#18You got to love Carl Icahn: ON WHEN ACKMAN CALLED HIM IN 2003: "I'm telling you he's like a crybaby in the schoolyard. I went to a tough school in Queens, you know, and they used to beat up the little Jewish boys. He was like one of the little Jewish boys crying ..." ON ACKMAN AS A FRIEND: "He's the quintessential example of 'if you want a friend on Wall Street, get a dog.'" ON HAVING DINNER WITH ACKMAN: "As far as I…
Re: One Billion Dollars Short, Bill Ackman, and the Siege Of Herbalife (2015)
#19The #1 factor in deciding if an MLM is legit is the product. Many, many MLMs have products that have no real value to any market, existing only to attempt to legitimize a money game.
However, MLM is a pretty good marketing approach for products that:
1 - are new or difficult to understand, and where having a human explain or demonstrate in person helps the potential consumer decide if it's something for them
2 - depend on customer testimonials to express their effectiveness, particularly regarding consumables that are not or cannot be judged and regulated by the FDA or similar body
3 - are consumable, such that the buyers and _consumers_ of the product naturally evangelize the product, and then get rewards for bringing new customers
Let's be honest - there are a lot of BS products that are legally marketed through traditional, accepted, and even respected channels. And there are a ton of BS products marketing via MLM. The difference is that some MLMs have lured members with the unrealistic prospect of huge incomes and then guided the new members to buy a ton of product ("front-loading") so as to ascend more rapidly to the higher earning potentials. That's how you end up with people with a garage full of junk they'll never manage to sell.
I don't know if Herbalife does this. I rather doubt it. But really, if a new employee in a company could choose to pay $25k up front with the promise that they would be more quickly promoted to higher management levels, I think a lot of people would do it - even if they had no skills or motivation to work to earn a promotion. In some MLMs, that option exists.
Regarding compensation, every company that markets products takes some percent of product sales and directs that toward marketing efforts. What makes MLM unique is that it directs that marketing money to individuals (presumably based on the amount of sales they drive). And just as Division Managers of large companies may receive bonuses based on the success of their divisions, MLM leaders often receive some compensation based on the sales (success) of representatives they have personally recruited or who have been recruited by their recruits.
I could go on, but it's boring now. Point is, MLM isn't inherently evil, just as capitalism isn't inherently evil. But everywhere, there are some people who will do anything for a dollar. Some become hedge fund managers, and some become MLM lead marketers.
Re: One Billion Dollars Short, Bill Ackman, and the Siege Of Herbalife (2015)
#20Hard to beat the hedge fund compensation model of fee on the way up, fee on the way down. Agnostic to his Herbalife bet, Ackman "has widely underperformed the S&P 500 since its EOY 2012 inception: 7.1% since inception net of fees vs. 84% for the S&P 500. Their original flagship fund's (2004 inception) track record is outstanding with returns of ~20% per annum." So his first fund killed it, he made a name for himself,…