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Forgetting a Child in a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime? (2009)

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Re: Forgetting a Child in a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime? (2009)

#221

Post by ideonexus »

mikeash wrote: post #213
ideonexus wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the callousness in this post extremely distressing. You don't understand what having a child under the age of six months is like. You are incredibly sleep deprived, making errors at work and are a danger on the road. My wife and I piled up a barricade of boxes to the door of our balcony because we were terrified that one of us would hallucinate at 4am and drop our newborn off the fourth floor. So when I read a…

I'm a father and I know exactly what it's like, but good job assuming. I think you misunderstood the point I'm making. I'm not saying every single parent who leaves a child in a car is a bad parent. I'm saying that some are, and making it a crime will deter them. I'm also saying that it can deter even good parents.

The fact that you are a parent makes your position even more incomprehensible. If you truly know "exactly what it's like" then you would have sympathy for the parents who experience these tragedies and would be offering preventative solutions instead of demonizing them and demanding punitive measures.

Re: Forgetting a Child in a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime? (2009)

#222

Post by wahern »

mikeash wrote: post #106
rayiner wrote: post #31

This is a great way to analyze the purposes of the criminal justice system. Typically, there are three: punishment, deterrence, and rehabilitation. Prosecuting someone who forgot their kid in the car can't have deterrent effect--to the extent the event was avoidable, the possibility of prosecution couldn't possibly match the deterrent effect created by the risk of harm to the child. Likewise, there is no rehabilitati…

I disagree about deterrence. There are a lot of shitty parents out there who fear prison more than they fear losing their child. There are even parents who want to kill their children. If it becomes common knowledge that you can get away with murdering your kid as long as you use this technique... I don't really want to think about that. People are also really bad about evaluating potential consequences. A person mig…

Intentionally leaving your child in the car, knowingly or wrecklessly putting them at risk of harm, is already criminal. People have gotten life sentences for it, even when their defense was absent mindedness. See, e.g., http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/14/us/justin-ross-harris-trial-ve...

But any criminal law that punished unintentionally leaving your child in the car would be unconstitutional in the U.S., and likely in most other developed nations. There's a mens rea component to criminal liability that requires a degree intention of the act plus knowledge of the possible consequences. That component is especially strong for felony offenses or anything that comes with serious punishment, which is presumably what we're talking about. (I doubt a misdemeanor fine is going deter a brazen sociopath, given the existing criminal liability risks.)

So I just don't see the point in trying to crack down. It would be superfluous for many reasons. That kind of logic is how the U.S. has accumulated so many criminal laws that prosecutors can bully people without fear of any sort of reprisal. Throw enough charges at someone and one of them is bound to stick, just because the justice system (any justice system) is imperfect and innocent people are always at risk of a false positive verdict.

Re: Forgetting a Child in a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime? (2009)

#223

Post by mikeash »

ideonexus wrote: post #221
mikeash wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a father and I know exactly what it's like, but good job assuming. I think you misunderstood the point I'm making. I'm not saying every single parent who leaves a child in a car is a bad parent. I'm saying that some are, and making it a crime will deter them. I'm also saying that it can deter even good parents.

The fact that you are a parent makes your position even more incomprehensible. If you truly know "exactly what it's like" then you would have sympathy for the parents who experience these tragedies and would be offering preventative solutions instead of demonizing them and demanding punitive measures.

The entire point of my comment is that I believe treating it as a crime will prevent it from happening to some extent. You may disagree, but I'm not offering punitive measures instead of preventive solutions. I'm offering punitive measures as preventive solutions.

I think you're falling victim to the common fallacy where I advocate for A, you believe that A has consequence X, therefore you believe I'm advocating for X. But I believe A has consequence Y, and so I'm not in any way advocating for X.

I have great sympathy for parents who fall victim to this. But I'm more concerned with reducing the incidence of it. If treating it as a crime helps, which I believe it would, then it's well worth the tradeoff to me.

Coming at it from a personal perspective, if it ever happened to me, I can only imagine that I would be so distraught that I wouldn't care what the law did to me.

Re: Forgetting a Child in a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime? (2009)

#224

Post by mikeash »

wahern wrote: post #222
mikeash wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree about deterrence. There are a lot of shitty parents out there who fear prison more than they fear losing their child. There are even parents who want to kill their children. If it becomes common knowledge that you can get away with murdering your kid as long as you use this technique... I don't really want to think about that. People are also really bad about evaluating potential consequences. A person mig…

Intentionally leaving your child in the car, knowingly or wrecklessly putting them at risk of harm, is already criminal. People have gotten life sentences for it, even when their defense was absent mindedness. See, e.g., http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/14/us/justin-ross-harris-trial-ve... But any criminal law that punished unintentionally leaving your child in the car would be unconstitutional in the U.S., and likely in m…

I don't understand the last part of your comment. Good parents almost never (note: "almost"!) leave their children alone in a car. Cracking down on it would not noticeably increase the ability of the police to selectively prosecute people.

Looking at what gets treated as criminal negligence, one site mentioned that a nurse failing to feed a patient who can't feed themselves, and who subsequently starves to death, would be criminal negligence. You seem to indicate that this couldn't be criminal since it lacks intent. Is that example incorrect?

Re: Forgetting a Child in a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime? (2009)

#225

Post by m_mueller »

cjbprime wrote: post #219
m_mueller wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1.) SIDS still occurs at a rate of around 0.5 in 1000 in the Western world [1]. To compare, the probability of death in a traffic related accident over an 80 year lifespan is 0.85 in 1000 in the US. So it's still far from negligible. 2.) Sprott has at least a hypothesis to explain the correlation between back sleeping and decline in SIDS. His skeptics on the other hand have no explanation for why there is no confirme…

Honest question re 2): are there current confirmed cases of SIDS for back sleeping babies with no foreign objects in their crib? The NPR article I linked mentions that the current 0.5 rate is considered to be due to ignorance/non-compliance with safe sleeping policy.

At least I'm not aware of one. I find the amount of information on this topic overall quite thin. I get the feeling that prevention based medical research, without a background of commercialisation (i.e. drugs or treatments), isn't getting too much attention/funding overall, at least compared to its potential benefits.

Re: Forgetting a Child in a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime? (2009)

#226

Post by m_mueller »

comstock wrote: post #211
m_mueller wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm aware of that one and I don't think it explains everything if you pay closr attention. They don't go further than taking a general population statistic and try to to infer from correlation that mattress wrapping is disproven. What happens if you actually have two groups, one using wrapping and one from the same demographics who don't? Sprott hypothesises that laying infants on their back will reduce SIDS thanks t…

Reference 2 of that paper [1] describes such a study: "We conclude that not only is there no evidence from this study of any identifiable increase in the risk of SIDS associated with the use of mattresses with an integral PVC cover, but also that the use of such mattresses is associated with a lower risk..." [1] http://moscow.sci-hub.cc/e537c543e3d261c8c9ecf5b144267b15/bl...

Thank you, good find. It appears to me that there's two different subjects here. Richardson found a potential link between toxic gases from fungal growth. Sprott developed a (low cost) method using plastic wrapping to counter it, and has data to back it up. Your linked study says that plastic covers reduces the risk of SIDS. Well, it seems to me that these findings all agree if the fungal growth (within the loose stuffing material [1]) hypothesis is correct. I expect a plastic cover to somewhat shield from such gases since it would make them vent more to the sides. In Sprott's solution there's holes at the bottom of the wrapping such that the vent is also happening around the mattress rather than at the top.

One maybe crucial finding in your study that would not agree with Sprott/Richardson is the null result concerning the use of older mattresses. That one seems curious to me.

So here's my next question: Blair et al., Richardson as well as Sprott have data that the bedding has significant influence on SIDS risk. Why is there no mention of this in any national health advisory I can find? Why are there no follow-up studies and the medical community just settled on advising for back sleeping, even though it seems obvious that the risk can be mitigated further?

[1] It's noteworthy that Blair et al. did not distinguish about the stuffing material, which was a rather crucial point made by Richardson AFAIK. Both Richardson and Sprott have specific advise for what material should be used (pure cotton, no wool and PVC in the stuffing). Was that left out your linked study intentionally?

Re: Forgetting a Child in a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime? (2009)

#227

Post by lph »

lph wrote: post #136

Reading this article was heartbreaking. Becoming a parent changes you, or at least it changed me. I can no longer imagine harm to a child---as conjured in a written article, on a television show, or in a discussion---in an abstract way as I once could. It is now intensely emotional, as if it were happening to my own child in front of my eyes. This being HackerNews, I'm sure we're all thinking about fancy technologica…

Thinking about it further, here's an easy protocol, if you happen to have a push-button ignition vehicle: Toss the key fob into the back seat as soon as you get in. The car will still start. Now, when you leave the car, you have to go retrieve the fob before you can lock it. So this forces you to look in the back as part of your car locking habit.

Re: Forgetting a Child in a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime? (2009)

#228

Post by lph »

mmorearty wrote: post #165
lph wrote: post #136

Reading this article was heartbreaking. Becoming a parent changes you, or at least it changed me. I can no longer imagine harm to a child---as conjured in a written article, on a television show, or in a discussion---in an abstract way as I once could. It is now intensely emotional, as if it were happening to my own child in front of my eyes. This being HackerNews, I'm sure we're all thinking about fancy technologica…

I really like your idea, lph. Reminds me of "Why Japan's Rail Workers Point at Things" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14011793 My children are teens now, but I agree 100% that having children changed me in the same way that it changed you.

I loved that that article about Japan's rail workers. I'm a huge fan of this stuff. Pre-flight checklists, rock-climbing belay call-and-response, operating room instrument counts (to make sure nothing was left in the patient!), etc. Protocols based on the premise that even experts are fallible, and that even easy things can go sideways.

Re: Forgetting a Child in a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime? (2009)

#229

Post by lph »

function_seven wrote: post #100
Inconel wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's definitely an interesting method. I'm always surprised that I don't see more people relying on checklists in day to day tasks. I use checklists religiously at work and have incorporated them into my daily life as well. I have a number of friends who are constantly leaving things behind(cellphones, wallets, house/car keys), I don't think I'm any less of a naturally forgetful person than them, but because I use…

I have a bad habit of forgetting things at home when I leave in the morning. I developed a habit: “Wallet, keys, badge, smokes, phone” I pat the pocket each item should be in as I say it out loud. Unfortunately, I now do this on auto-pilot. I pat the pocket, say the word, leave the house... and realize I don’t have my badge on me when I arrive at work. I’m thinking about installing a card reader that locks me in the…

I like this thread. My people are here.

Re: Forgetting a Child in a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime? (2009)

#230

Post by comstock »

m_mueller wrote: post #226
comstock wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reference 2 of that paper [1] describes such a study: "We conclude that not only is there no evidence from this study of any identifiable increase in the risk of SIDS associated with the use of mattresses with an integral PVC cover, but also that the use of such mattresses is associated with a lower risk..." [1] http://moscow.sci-hub.cc/e537c543e3d261c8c9ecf5b144267b15/bl...

Thank you, good find. It appears to me that there's two different subjects here. Richardson found a potential link between toxic gases from fungal growth. Sprott developed a (low cost) method using plastic wrapping to counter it, and has data to back it up. Your linked study says that plastic covers reduces the risk of SIDS. Well, it seems to me that these findings all agree if the fungal growth (within the loose stu…

The plastic covers used in Blair et al. are 90% PVC covers. Richardson suggested PVC being digested by the fungus as the cause. So it's exactly the situation that should cause SIDS and it results in lower incidence of SIDS.

The mattress wrapping suggested by Sprott is wrapping using polythene.

So the results are totally incompatible with the notion that PVC mattresses causes SIDS as suggested by Richardson and Sprott.

There are other reports too, such as that conducted by the British government in 1998...

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