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Forgetting a Child in a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime? (2009)

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Re: Forgetting a Child in a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime? (2009)

#111

Post by Aloha »

0xbear wrote: post #20
icebraining wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please read the article. It's not about people who leave the kid in the car purposefully while they go do something else. It's about people who bring the kid in the car to drop them off somewhere, and they simply forget. Yes, it happens. Yes, to regular people. And yes, billions of people manage to do even this just fine. But it's a reasoning flaw - a well-known human bias - to assume that the people to whom it happe…

Yes, I've read it. Just because you didn't mean to do it doesn't mean it's not a crime. That's why it's called manslaughter and not murder, and that's why it carries a lower penalty.

I'd argue as a non-parent they the guilt they'll carry around for life is enough.

Re: Forgetting a Child in a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime? (2009)

#112

Post by balls187 »

nervousvarun wrote: post #41

As others have said this is a problem that in 2017 should already be solved by technology. But in the event you don't have access to a technological solution try this: If you have an infant in your car get in the habit of taking your shoes off and putting them next to the baby when you drive. When you reach your destination you might forget the infant...but you won't forget your shoes. Edit: My dad (who was an absent…

Seems like a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist.

You're better off not driving at all and solve that minor risk as well as the more likely risk (automobile accidents are the #1 killer of children)[1]

1: https://www.nichd.nih.gov/health/topics/pediatric/conditioni...

Re: Forgetting a Child in a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime? (2009)

#113

Post by badminton1 »

Leaving a child in a car is similar to allow children to drown in a swimming pool. They're seen differently but they are very similar in terms of negligence and consequences.

In my opinion people doing this should be charged with child endangerment.

Re: Forgetting a Child in a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime? (2009)

#114

Post by balls187 »

nervousvarun wrote: post #92
rocqua wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As horrible as this form of death is, it seems statistically unlikely. I'd wager that there are orders of magnitude between child deaths in cars due to heat and child deaths in cars due to crashes. As such, I don't think an app for this makes sense. I don't think this ranks when looking at the numbers. That said, this must be amongst the worst ways of losing a child, and that is saying something.

I think you're thinking of this from a purely "statistical scope of the problem" perspective and underestimating the value of "emotional commitment of a parent for their children". If there was an app (would require hardware...some sortof linkup with the child seat) I'd imagine if it was marketed right and there were studies supporting it's effectiveness you could charge an awful lot for it and virtually every parent…

> Car seats are incredibly expensive

Not in the US.

All carseats undergo strict testing under stringent regulations. While there are some real fancy seats out there, base level models ($50-100) range are safe.

More expensive seats have easier adjustments, easy to clean fabric, front/rear-facing modes, and other bells and whistles for parents.

For any first time parents in the US, I recommend picking up the latest copy of Baby Bargins (http://www.babybargains.com/). Lots of information about all the items you'll need for Baby, as well as safety ratings, and price considerations.

> Every parent wants peace of mind and I'd venture most would be willing to pay heavily for it.

That is very true. That's what gives rise to so-called SIDS motion monitors. Things that are supposed to alert you to an infant in distress, but in reality has not proven to decrease the risk of SIDS.

Re: Forgetting a Child in a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime? (2009)

#115

Post by [deleted] »

function_seven wrote: post #100
Inconel wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's definitely an interesting method. I'm always surprised that I don't see more people relying on checklists in day to day tasks. I use checklists religiously at work and have incorporated them into my daily life as well. I have a number of friends who are constantly leaving things behind(cellphones, wallets, house/car keys), I don't think I'm any less of a naturally forgetful person than them, but because I use…

I have a bad habit of forgetting things at home when I leave in the morning. I developed a habit: “Wallet, keys, badge, smokes, phone” I pat the pocket each item should be in as I say it out loud. Unfortunately, I now do this on auto-pilot. I pat the pocket, say the word, leave the house... and realize I don’t have my badge on me when I arrive at work. I’m thinking about installing a card reader that locks me in the…

[deleted]

Re: Forgetting a Child in a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime? (2009)

#116

Post by 0xbear »

mcappleton wrote: post #98
0xbear wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't just need to consider whether they would do it again. You also need to consider whether, if he gets off scot free, some unhappy depressed parent will do it on purpose and then claim she "forgot". So in this regard a punishment would both serve as a deterrent and reinforce societal norms.

I believe it's better that some guilty go free if it means that the innocent are not wrongly punished. Wrongly punishing the innocent is terrible and causes so many psychological problems. That's why we have innocent until proven guilty

The key phrase here is "some", and not "all". I mean why is it even an argument that killing your own kid through negligence should be a crime? The perp may or may not be convicted, but they _must_ go through a trial for something like that, and the jury of their peers must decide. Anything else would cause a spike in "negligence". Because let's face it, there are a lot of people out there who have no business having kids in the first place.

Re: Forgetting a Child in a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime? (2009)

#118

Post by mysterypie »

mikeash wrote: post #106
rayiner wrote: post #31

This is a great way to analyze the purposes of the criminal justice system. Typically, there are three: punishment, deterrence, and rehabilitation. Prosecuting someone who forgot their kid in the car can't have deterrent effect--to the extent the event was avoidable, the possibility of prosecution couldn't possibly match the deterrent effect created by the risk of harm to the child. Likewise, there is no rehabilitati…

I disagree about deterrence. There are a lot of shitty parents out there who fear prison more than they fear losing their child. There are even parents who want to kill their children. If it becomes common knowledge that you can get away with murdering your kid as long as you use this technique... I don't really want to think about that. People are also really bad about evaluating potential consequences. A person mig…

> There are a lot of shitty parents out there who fear prison more than they fear losing their child. There are even parents who want to kill their children.

This raises a question I've wondered about. Can a parent who doesn't want their child "give up" the child to the state without any strings attached? I.e., without doing something bad that would cause the state to take away the child and without being on the hook to the state for future child care.

Before you tell me that enormous crowds are waiting to adopt cute healthy babies, imagine for example a dangerous delinquent adolescent with a serious genetic disorder. Can you voluntarily ask the government to take such an unwanted child with no further contact and no financial obligation?

You would think that this situation comes up frequently, and that there should be a process: Fill in form 54F, signed and notarized by both parents. But it's surprisingly difficult to google a clear-cut answer for any country or jurisdiction.

Re: Forgetting a Child in a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime? (2009)

#119

Post by evanpw »

mysterypie wrote: post #118
mikeash wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree about deterrence. There are a lot of shitty parents out there who fear prison more than they fear losing their child. There are even parents who want to kill their children. If it becomes common knowledge that you can get away with murdering your kid as long as you use this technique... I don't really want to think about that. People are also really bad about evaluating potential consequences. A person mig…

> There are a lot of shitty parents out there who fear prison more than they fear losing their child. There are even parents who want to kill their children. This raises a question I've wondered about. Can a parent who doesn't want their child "give up" the child to the state without any strings attached? I.e., without doing something bad that would cause the state to take away the child and without being on the hook…

Yes, at least in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe-haven_law

Re: Forgetting a Child in a Car Is a Horrifying Mistake. Is It a Crime? (2009)

#120

Post by PhasmaFelis »

mikeash wrote: post #106
rayiner wrote: post #31

This is a great way to analyze the purposes of the criminal justice system. Typically, there are three: punishment, deterrence, and rehabilitation. Prosecuting someone who forgot their kid in the car can't have deterrent effect--to the extent the event was avoidable, the possibility of prosecution couldn't possibly match the deterrent effect created by the risk of harm to the child. Likewise, there is no rehabilitati…

I disagree about deterrence. There are a lot of shitty parents out there who fear prison more than they fear losing their child. There are even parents who want to kill their children. If it becomes common knowledge that you can get away with murdering your kid as long as you use this technique... I don't really want to think about that. People are also really bad about evaluating potential consequences. A person mig…

> I disagree about deterrence. There are a lot of shitty parents out there who fear prison more than they fear losing their child. There are even parents who want to kill their children. If it becomes common knowledge that you can get away with murdering your kid as long as you use this technique... I don't really want to think about that.

IMO, if there's any sign of general neglect, then it should certainly be punished harshly. I'm not quite comfortable with doing the same to a loving parent who has one brain fart with terrible consequences. Of course, drawing a clear distinction after the fact can be very difficult, but that's true of many serious crimes.

> I would also say that it should be criminal merely to leave a child in a car like this, even if the child survives.

I tentatively agree with this. Care needs to be taken to ensure you don't hurt the child(ren) even more by taking away an otherwise-excellent parent, but it is dangerous neglect, even if it only happens once and no one is hurt.

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