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Hypnotized by Hyperloop

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Re: Hypnotized by Hyperloop

#131

Post by dahoramanodoceu »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #26
alexandros wrote: post #6

Couldn't finish this. It started off badly by calling the hyperloop "vacuum-powered". First, it's not even vacuum sealed (just low air pressure), and second, how can something even be powered by the vacuum? Are we just throwing terms around for effect here? Then, the author continues with more material errors. The hyperloop/tunnel combo apparently "requires a hard reboot" of the modern city. No it does not. The whole…

He's writing this to people like you. As far as I was able to read, not a single mention that Musk has been able to take two or three other previously considered impossible tasks and bring them to completion. Call me a fanboy if you will, but at least my fanboyism is evidence-based. It's not personal. Musk is not anyone's personal juvenile delinquent (cable TV edit). Why do you care so much whether a single billionai…

Are you aware of how much money is dumped into maintaining roads? Erosion.

Re: Hypnotized by Hyperloop

#132

Post by eesmith »

Could someone tell me how these tunnels will be cooled and vented?

Sure, put a car on an electric sled. But the people want A/C (or heat), and lights, the wheels provide friction. If the car was running beforehand then the engine block is cooling off. Even if it's an electric car, the brakes, tires, and skin will be hot, dumping heat into the well-insulated tunnel.

This is a well-known problem in London, where decades of heat have built up in the Underground. Putting new cooling in is expensive, because they require expensive surface access.

If the goal is to have multiple layers of tunnels under a city, then how are they all cooled? How much surface access does each one need?

The same question applies to a hyperloop tunnel.

There must also be vents, for people to breath of course, and also for smoke and evacuation management in case of fire. How many are needed?

Re: Hypnotized by Hyperloop

#133

Post by jonstewart »

dalbasal wrote: post #18

One feature of the transport market (from a mile high view) is that demand is almost infinite. If you can get 40kms in 45 minutes, then you can live within 40 miles of work and commute in that time. If you could go 400kms, then that becomes your commuting radius. We've seen people spread this way as earlier mechanized transport was invented. IE, average commute times didn't go down because of faster transport, distan…

One feature of classical mechanics is that the world must abide by it. With transportation, the vehicle must start and stop at a speed of zero. The energy required to accelerate the vehicle to its top speed and then decelerate it to back to zero increases quadratically as the top speed increases.

Another feature of classical mechanics is, of course, that Aristotelian concept of kenophobia, or horror vacui, or resintenza del vacuo, or natura abhorret vaccum, or nature abhors a vacuum. Of course we now know we can produce vacuums these days... but it's not easy to make one. The largest is in Sandusky, OH, and it's 122 feet high and 100 feet wide. It takes 8-12 hours to achieve vacuum conditions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Power_Facility

Re: Hypnotized by Hyperloop

#134

Post by ethn »

dalbasal wrote: post #121
ethn wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Roads aren't a speculative technology, they are proven to work, and are not owned by a private enterprise. Elon Musk is being subsidized to create a monopoly of transportation on commonly owned land. But yes, this isn't just a problem with Elon Musk, the political-industrial complex is a newer but persistent problem thats become exacerbated with age. Elon Musk is just a master at exploiting this hole.

Ok... a bunch of things in here. One is investment into speculative vs proven ideas. I don't have a single/principled answer to that. Another is subsidization, though that is fairly common (almost universal) in transport . A third is monopoly. Again, almost unavoidable in transport. I guess if you put the last two together, publicly subsidized private monopoly than you get to some " political-industrial complex " iss…

The entire point is that there is no problem with private transportation, as that's on the risk of private individuals instead of the common tax payer. You can have a system like the Hong Kong rail, operated and owned by MTR Corporation Limited. A monopoly that is profitable without subsidy by government but instead by companies; it remains one of the cheapest transportation services in the world. It pays for the privilege of being a monopoly to the government of Hong Kong. But yes, a publicly subsidized private enterprise is the political-industrial complex; and it's becoming more rampant at the expense of competition, along with the tax payers. The Hong-Kong MTR demonstrates that there is no reason why tax payers need to subsidize significant private risk, when private individuals can do it alone, especially in cases where they stand to benefit the most. If Elon Musk was so sure of his technology, he wouldn't hesitate in taking a loan.

Refer to my initial comment. Elon Musk is using massive subsidies to support his businesses, and Hyper-loop will be no different (even escaping externality costs). A mag-lev train is not speculative, a subway system is not speculative. There are many cheaper ways to create a transportation system for similar performance. Musk's isn't particularly needed at all, he is solving a problem that doesn't really exist. There would be no problem if the technology is proven to be significantly beneficial to everyone. There would be no problem with a private company paying and taking the risk on a large-scale Hyper-loop. But in Musk's current attempts, he is creating a redundant enterprise that only benefits the rich, at the expense of the common tax payer, which is money that could be used in any other government branch that has proven benefits. In general, the government should not subsidize unproven technology being implemented at large-scale with unknown real benefits to the common tax payer.

Re: Hypnotized by Hyperloop

#135

Post by fiatjaf »

isostatic wrote: post #117
fiatjaf wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"services to the citizens" that no one wishes, no one would pay for if had a chance (considering the actual prices), but still somehow paid by the citizens.

City parks wouldn't be economically beneficial, who would pay to go to a city park? Could that really justify the land use. However the fact those parks are there does make life better. Measuring that though is tricky. How much is a child's laugh worth?

You've never lived in a place without city parks.

Re: Hypnotized by Hyperloop

#136

Post by jonstewart »

kfk wrote: post #2

Difficult topic. You can make this argument on any new transformative tech. You could have made the same arguments about smartphones 10 years ago. On the other hand, I am still not clear how a pod that can carry max 12 people can compete with trains that can carry hundreds.

You can make this argument on any new transformative tech, but in the case of the Hyperloop, there's actually no new transformative tech as of yet. It's merely science fiction, which is the point of the article: it's more fun to talk about science fiction and less fun to maintain and improve the solutions we already have.

Re: Hypnotized by Hyperloop

#137

Post by lisper »

kurthr wrote: post #126
lisper wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem ... isn't ... that the Hyper-loop won't work. Actually, that is the problem. The thermal expansion problem has not yet been solved, or even seriously addressed. Hyperloop proponents are completely ignoring it, giddily betting that a solution will somehow magically present itself because technological optimism always wins. Well, no, it doesn't. The only thing that always wins is the laws of physics.

I thank you for bringing this up and the chance to read about this issue elsewhere, but no it isn't a problem. We have 2000km long gas pipelines. They dont worry about it (on the surface where temperatures actually change). Serpentines work... there are so many solutions that one could be accidentally introduced. I think we're discussing a bikeshed.

> Serpentines work

Yes, for gas pipelines. Not for a track that carries passenger vehicles at 700 MPH.

Re: Hypnotized by Hyperloop

#138

Post by ComradeTaco »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #113
Tiktaalik wrote: post #112

The vague notion of Hyperloop is awful for cities for the reasons mentioned in this article. Municipal governments are fighting a very hard, uphill battle right now to get basic funding for proven conventional public transit services which would dramatically make life better for everyone. Musk dropping the promise of Hyperloop (with no interest on following up on the idea) has provided ammo for transit cynics and opp…

One thing I don't understand about the "induced demand" thing - surely there must be a limit to this? If you keep expanding roads, at some point you must hit the situation in which your capacity is greater than the number of people even remotely interested in traveling the road... I suppose the limit might be quite high, but I've never seen it discussed at all .

There is a functional limit for induced demand! But it effectively can't be reached in urban and suburban areas because cars scale really poorly. Cars don't scale well for three main reasons:

(1) Cost. Building roads and highways inflicts both huge upfront capital costs and maintenance costs. A typical highway line has a throughput of 2,000 cars per hour. (2) Real Estate. Building the level of roads necessary to meet induced demand+ would take up an extremely large amount of land that can only be used for vehicles. (3) Local Roads. Local roads can only absorb so much capacity and they have functional throughput limits. If you wanted to make them faster, homeowners couldn't have driveways.

If you really wanted to, you could possibly make a city where driving is king and there is effectively no congestion. It would just be absurdly expensive and hostile to everyone who doesn't have access to car.

Re: Hypnotized by Hyperloop

#139

Post by ethn »

lisper wrote: post #119
ethn wrote: post #25

The problem with the Hyper-loop and Elon Musk in general, isn't that Elon Musk is wrong or that the Hyper-loop won't work. The problem is that he engages in a nepotistic political-industrial complex. That is, he subsidizes his risk for the benefit of the shareholders and himself at the expense of the taxpayer. The same tax payers who are often in a state of financial uncertainty and destitution of education. The same…

> The problem ... isn't ... that the Hyper-loop won't work. Actually, that is the problem. The thermal expansion problem has not yet been solved, or even seriously addressed. Hyperloop proponents are completely ignoring it, giddily betting that a solution will somehow magically present itself because technological optimism always wins. Well, no, it doesn't. The only thing that always wins is the laws of physics.

I said that because it turns out, it doesn't even matter if Hyperloop works or not. In the best case of implementation, it's still not even beneficial to the common tax payer.

Re: Hypnotized by Hyperloop

#140

Post by ComradeTaco »

Tiktaalik wrote: post #112

The vague notion of Hyperloop is awful for cities for the reasons mentioned in this article. Municipal governments are fighting a very hard, uphill battle right now to get basic funding for proven conventional public transit services which would dramatically make life better for everyone. Musk dropping the promise of Hyperloop (with no interest on following up on the idea) has provided ammo for transit cynics and opp…

I believe personally that the Hyperloop is vaporware that will exist only seasonally on the cover of Popular Mechanics. If somones actually produces even a semi-functional hyperloop testbed maybe I'll sing a different tune.
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