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Hypnotized by Hyperloop

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Re: Hypnotized by Hyperloop

#61

Post by seibelj »

platz wrote: post #21
alexandros wrote: post #6

Couldn't finish this. It started off badly by calling the hyperloop "vacuum-powered". First, it's not even vacuum sealed (just low air pressure), and second, how can something even be powered by the vacuum? Are we just throwing terms around for effect here? Then, the author continues with more material errors. The hyperloop/tunnel combo apparently "requires a hard reboot" of the modern city. No it does not. The whole…

The job of a being a good conservative is to push back on every progressive idea.

It's good to have skeptics push back and ensure that the most valid ideas move forward. Otherwise every wacky idea would get funded

Re: Hypnotized by Hyperloop

#62

Post by briffle »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #48
annon wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact that we've lost faith in humanity's ability to improve things by taking on large, ambitious projects, even if some, even if most, will fail, saddens me every day. It doesn't prevent me from trying to make the world a better place though, and I hope nobody else was discouraged by low-quality, knee-jerk thinking like this, either. Exactly! The author pick and chose grand ideas from the past that didn’t work.…

Those were both networks built off of scaling existing technologies (the highway is as old as people, and the railway was ~40 years old at that point). It's a very different thing than entirely new tech outcompeting old and outscaling it, which is what Musk is attempting. The question is why don't we have a national high speed rail network and if that hasn't or can't work, what's Hyperloop and Boring gonna do better?

Isn't the hyperloop scaling tunneling? Making it faster and cheaper and smaller diameter? Subways have been around for a VERY long time...

Re: Hypnotized by Hyperloop

#63

Post by _delirium »

stale2002 wrote: post #55
ethn wrote: post #25

The problem with the Hyper-loop and Elon Musk in general, isn't that Elon Musk is wrong or that the Hyper-loop won't work. The problem is that he engages in a nepotistic political-industrial complex. That is, he subsidizes his risk for the benefit of the shareholders and himself at the expense of the taxpayer. The same tax payers who are often in a state of financial uncertainty and destitution of education. The same…

Huh? Transportation technology massively benefits the poor more than it does the rich. The biggest expense that the working class pay is rent. If you can cut long distance commute times in half, then that means that someone who works in the city is able to save 50% or more on rent by living outside the extremely expensive city. Transportation and housing (2 sides of the same coin) is arguably the single most importan…

Isn't the hyperloop focused on fast city-center-to-city-center transportation between major commercial districts? I don't see how making it fast to go nonstop between Manhattan and D.C. (the current proposal) helps the working class with affordable housing.

Re: Hypnotized by Hyperloop

#64

Post by methodin »

ethn wrote: post #25

The problem with the Hyper-loop and Elon Musk in general, isn't that Elon Musk is wrong or that the Hyper-loop won't work. The problem is that he engages in a nepotistic political-industrial complex. That is, he subsidizes his risk for the benefit of the shareholders and himself at the expense of the taxpayer. The same tax payers who are often in a state of financial uncertainty and destitution of education. The same…

Can you elaborate on what you mean when you say "at the expense of the taxpayer"?

Re: Hypnotized by Hyperloop

#65

Post by wpietri »

annon wrote: post #40
alexandros wrote: post #6

Couldn't finish this. It started off badly by calling the hyperloop "vacuum-powered". First, it's not even vacuum sealed (just low air pressure), and second, how can something even be powered by the vacuum? Are we just throwing terms around for effect here? Then, the author continues with more material errors. The hyperloop/tunnel combo apparently "requires a hard reboot" of the modern city. No it does not. The whole…

> The fact that we've lost faith in humanity's ability to improve things by taking on large, ambitious projects, even if some, even if most, will fail, saddens me every day. It doesn't prevent me from trying to make the world a better place though, and I hope nobody else was discouraged by low-quality, knee-jerk thinking like this, either. Exactly! The author pick and chose grand ideas from the past that didn’t work.…

> We’re a nation that built the interstate highway system

I think you mean this as a positive example, but a lot of people would disagree. It was an enormous public subsidy for a lot of behaviors that now don't look so good, including increased energy dependence, destruction of natural habitat, and a significant increase in racial segregation.

History is what it is, but I hope we can learn some lessons about the downsides of uncritical techno-utopianism.

Re: Hypnotized by Hyperloop

#66

Post by platz »

seibelj wrote: post #61
platz wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The job of a being a good conservative is to push back on every progressive idea.

It's good to have skeptics push back and ensure that the most valid ideas move forward. Otherwise every wacky idea would get funded

essentially that same thing that I'm saying.

Re: Hypnotized by Hyperloop

#67

Post by dalbasal »

ethn wrote: post #25

The problem with the Hyper-loop and Elon Musk in general, isn't that Elon Musk is wrong or that the Hyper-loop won't work. The problem is that he engages in a nepotistic political-industrial complex. That is, he subsidizes his risk for the benefit of the shareholders and himself at the expense of the taxpayer. The same tax payers who are often in a state of financial uncertainty and destitution of education. The same…

I suppose you can make some variant of this argument about the modern economy, but I don't see why you're singling out Musk for this. Is it because transport infrastructure tends to be subsidized? If so, could we not make the same argument for roads, trains & such?

Re: Hypnotized by Hyperloop

#68

Post by cmrdporcupine »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #48
annon wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact that we've lost faith in humanity's ability to improve things by taking on large, ambitious projects, even if some, even if most, will fail, saddens me every day. It doesn't prevent me from trying to make the world a better place though, and I hope nobody else was discouraged by low-quality, knee-jerk thinking like this, either. Exactly! The author pick and chose grand ideas from the past that didn’t work.…

Those were both networks built off of scaling existing technologies (the highway is as old as people, and the railway was ~40 years old at that point). It's a very different thing than entirely new tech outcompeting old and outscaling it, which is what Musk is attempting. The question is why don't we have a national high speed rail network and if that hasn't or can't work, what's Hyperloop and Boring gonna do better?

We don't have a national (or contintent wide) high speed rail network because North Americans by and large don't believe in community efforts and social investment (except for military). There is absolutely incredible private wealth and an incredible poverty of public wealth.

And so we are beholden to private visionaries like Musk.

Re: Hypnotized by Hyperloop

#69

Post by protomyth »

maxerickson wrote: post #53
protomyth wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we take two lines (one rail and one hyperloop) and compare the number of people that can be transported in an hour, then we can judge if multiple 12 person pods can transport more/less than trains over the same period. I suspect that pods might have a pretty good shot at winning.

I would want to see such throughput numbers scaled to cost. (because if one or the other wins by spending 10x, well, duh)

Oh, absolutely, cost is a huge factor. I’m sure Californians are well aware of the cost of a rail project these days.

I do hope part of the cos analysis is likely rent / housing costs paid by the commuters as a result of the build. I tend to think an extended range from higher speeds would decrease total housing costs but I too would want to see figures.

Re: Hypnotized by Hyperloop

#70

Post by ethn »

stale2002 wrote: post #55
ethn wrote: post #25

The problem with the Hyper-loop and Elon Musk in general, isn't that Elon Musk is wrong or that the Hyper-loop won't work. The problem is that he engages in a nepotistic political-industrial complex. That is, he subsidizes his risk for the benefit of the shareholders and himself at the expense of the taxpayer. The same tax payers who are often in a state of financial uncertainty and destitution of education. The same…

Huh? Transportation technology massively benefits the poor more than it does the rich. The biggest expense that the working class pay is rent. If you can cut long distance commute times in half, then that means that someone who works in the city is able to save 50% or more on rent by living outside the extremely expensive city. Transportation and housing (2 sides of the same coin) is arguably the single most importan…

If it really is beneficial, then Elon Musk and the share holders, should use their same influence they have on the government, on the financial institutions that exist to acquire low interest loans.

There is of no reason, that the tax payers should be forced to support the risk or even a project that few people under the upper-middle class will benefit from. There is no reason that Elon Musk should be subsidized to create a private monopoly of transportation––quite contrary, he should be paying the government for the externality caused by being privileged to the exclusive right of the vast common land underneath the states; a common land that other tax payers are now deprived from.

Most citizens of the USA don't even live in the city, especially the ones who you claim would benefit from it. They already live in cheap housing in New Jersey 30 minutes away.

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