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Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

theguardian.com

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Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#41

Post by viraptor »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #39
viraptor wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really because we're told that? I mean, in very practical terms, being rich and popular (within reason) will give you better life in almost every way. Mainly because it allows you to choose what kind of life you want to lead. Also in case of any life accidents, having contacts and money, you can make lots of them easier to deal with. Dominating others is the only one I'm not sure of. On a global scale, I think…

> "On a family scale, being rich is close to the healthiest thing you can do." I would say being self-reliant is the 'healthiest' thing you can do. Being rich is a type of self-reliance, but it comes with its downsides. The biggest one is probably isolation. A disconnection from the world around you. Perhaps the world around you is 'unhealthy' so it makes some sense to be disconnected from it, but generally it's a do…

That's a deeper / secondary result. I was thinking in terms of basic needs. Self-reliance is good, but if you live in a good area, close to a good hospital where you don't wait and don't need to worry that calling an ambulance is a debt risk, your survival chance is much higher. You can't realistically provide this yourself / in small community.

Even basic human events like a childbirth: if everything goes well - great, if you get PPH - you've potentially got minutes before bleeding out.

Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#42

Post by colinator »

mathgenius wrote: post #15
crypt1d wrote: post #12

“Our democracy has been hacked.” is something that resonates with me very well. A select group of people have mastered media manipulation and are now acting as puppeteers while we are all in a state of confusion, no longer able to discern truth from disinformation. It is not classic censorship that worries me anymore. It is this constant bombardment with questionable data that we need to figure out how to battle, as…

> questionable data that we need to figure out how to battle The reality of the situation seems obvious to me, even if the edges are not clearly defined. I don't think it's very difficult to work out what is going on (with climate change etc.) To me this is not about people getting access to good data, or being otherwise properly educated. It's about people identifying with "their group", and attacking the "others".…

So much agree. The content of issues is largely irrelevant to most people. If the republican leadership were environmentalists, so would their constituents be.

What people really want is for their group to beat other groups. It's always been that way, and always will.

This factionalization can occasionally be overcome by great leaders or external enemies. But now, with this 'party over country' attitude that we have, it'll can't be. Shame on us.

Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#43

Post by Boothroid »

fsloth wrote: post #31
Boothroid wrote: post #23

Global warming is just the tip of the iceberg (sorry). Seriously though, there are so many ways in which humanity is making the world immeasurably worse and in which our current models of organisation cannot be sustained, and global warming is only one of them. Take for example modern agriculture: we are forced to pour huge amounts of artificial (i.e. not animal manure) fertiliser onto the soil in order to produce en…

Yes, we have problems. But I would prefer an argumentation that does not place the 'artificiality' of modern farming at the fulcrum as there is no 'natural' farming. All farming is artificial - an artifact of human culture. Farming is a thousands of years old biohack, of whose output we've improved over millenias. Using nitrogen fertilizer generated through Haber process to increase crop yelds is not in any way less…

Firstly, the contrast you draw regarding artificial versus natural farming is yours, not mine. Secondly, surely it is apparent that there is a big difference between digging potash from hundreds of metres below the surface of the earth versus gathering animal manure - for a start, if we make our food production systems dependent on the former we are in trouble if it becomes unavailable, for example through exhaustion or economic/civilisational collapse. Thirdly I'm not sure the term trace is in keeping with the magnitude of e.g. nitrogen run off into the sea - some think the eutrophication of the world's oceans could become as big a problem as carbon: https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-05/uov-at051208...

Fourth, I think we all have an idea of what constitutes western lifestyle, and thus I would say it is an effective term in communicating an idea. Are you really saying you have no idea what western lifestyle means?

Fifth, you ask me what I would specifically fix. I suspect that overall your tactic is to challenge aspects of my statements without refuting the central thrust of what I am saying, but whatever, I will engage. Specific problem: eutrophication due to high levels of fertiliser. How do we fix it? Drastic restriction of food production - there is a massive surfeit of food in most developed countries - and introduction of less destructive methods of agriculture. Why would this never be allowed to happen? Big business would take far too big a hit.

Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#44

Post by simonh »

crypt1d wrote: post #12

“Our democracy has been hacked.” is something that resonates with me very well. A select group of people have mastered media manipulation and are now acting as puppeteers while we are all in a state of confusion, no longer able to discern truth from disinformation. It is not classic censorship that worries me anymore. It is this constant bombardment with questionable data that we need to figure out how to battle, as…

I don't buy the evil secret conspiracy theory. I mean there are evil secret conspiracies, but they're much more narrow, factional and ineffective than advertised.

Let's take Fake News. This is entirely a grass roots phenomenon. Sure there are individuals and groups behind a lot of it, but those individuals and groups are not heavily funded black ops teams of a billionaire conspiracy. They're sad white supremacist Reddit trolls. The fact that Trump blundered on to a wave of it and rode it to power is an accident, not the culmination of a choreographed master plan.

Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#46

Post by kevinSuttle »

simonh wrote: post #44
crypt1d wrote: post #12

“Our democracy has been hacked.” is something that resonates with me very well. A select group of people have mastered media manipulation and are now acting as puppeteers while we are all in a state of confusion, no longer able to discern truth from disinformation. It is not classic censorship that worries me anymore. It is this constant bombardment with questionable data that we need to figure out how to battle, as…

I don't buy the evil secret conspiracy theory. I mean there are evil secret conspiracies, but they're much more narrow, factional and ineffective than advertised. Let's take Fake News. This is entirely a grass roots phenomenon. Sure there are individuals and groups behind a lot of it, but those individuals and groups are not heavily funded black ops teams of a billionaire conspiracy. They're sad white supremacist Red…

All news is "fake news".

http://thedesk.matthewkeys.net/2013/12/heres-how-conan-obrie...

Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#48

Post by horsawlarway »

fsloth wrote: post #31
Boothroid wrote: post #23

Global warming is just the tip of the iceberg (sorry). Seriously though, there are so many ways in which humanity is making the world immeasurably worse and in which our current models of organisation cannot be sustained, and global warming is only one of them. Take for example modern agriculture: we are forced to pour huge amounts of artificial (i.e. not animal manure) fertiliser onto the soil in order to produce en…

Yes, we have problems. But I would prefer an argumentation that does not place the 'artificiality' of modern farming at the fulcrum as there is no 'natural' farming. All farming is artificial - an artifact of human culture. Farming is a thousands of years old biohack, of whose output we've improved over millenias. Using nitrogen fertilizer generated through Haber process to increase crop yelds is not in any way less…

Desertification of crop lands? Increasing pesticide use coupled with decreasing benefit? Depletion of groundwater tables because of land usage that encourages run-off? Substituting fertilizer made from non-renewable resources for a self sustaining form of agriculture?

Destruction of local habits for mono-culture crop development? Destroying complex ecosystems that are perfectly capable of supporting rich crops for humans and replacing them with mono-culture crops like soy/corn/sugarbeets that absolutely fuck the topsoil, deplete nutrients, and fail to support basically any animal life?

I'm not OP, but our current agricultural practices that came out of the world wars with cheap and easy access to "Chemicals" is absolutely a problem. Not because the chemicals are artificial (although that doesn't help with regards to price) but because we're using them in ways that don't create a renewing system. We're literally destroying our sources of water and topsoil to grow corn no one needs.

Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#50

Post by graphitezepp »

mathgenius wrote: post #15
crypt1d wrote: post #12

“Our democracy has been hacked.” is something that resonates with me very well. A select group of people have mastered media manipulation and are now acting as puppeteers while we are all in a state of confusion, no longer able to discern truth from disinformation. It is not classic censorship that worries me anymore. It is this constant bombardment with questionable data that we need to figure out how to battle, as…

> questionable data that we need to figure out how to battle The reality of the situation seems obvious to me, even if the edges are not clearly defined. I don't think it's very difficult to work out what is going on (with climate change etc.) To me this is not about people getting access to good data, or being otherwise properly educated. It's about people identifying with "their group", and attacking the "others".…

I agree the central issue is the self/other tribalism that's gone out of control. But you shouldn't dismiss the lack of access to good data. It's the manipulation and bombardment of nonesense that is entrenching the divide to what I perceive as unprecedented levels.
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