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Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

theguardian.com

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Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#31

Post by fsloth »

Boothroid wrote: post #23

Global warming is just the tip of the iceberg (sorry). Seriously though, there are so many ways in which humanity is making the world immeasurably worse and in which our current models of organisation cannot be sustained, and global warming is only one of them. Take for example modern agriculture: we are forced to pour huge amounts of artificial (i.e. not animal manure) fertiliser onto the soil in order to produce en…

Yes, we have problems.

But I would prefer an argumentation that does not place the 'artificiality' of modern farming at the fulcrum as there is no 'natural' farming. All farming is artificial - an artifact of human culture. Farming is a thousands of years old biohack, of whose output we've improved over millenias. Using nitrogen fertilizer generated through Haber process to increase crop yelds is not in any way less 'natural' than manure.

Trace chemicals from e.g. pesticides that leak to all sorts of foodchains, including those where human partake - now, that's an issue.

It's also not very effective to speak of the general consumption of western lifestyle. We can't fix 'western lifestyle'. But, we can fix specific problems, one at a time. The problem needs some metric and the solution needs some predetermined metric to follow.

So, what's the first thing you would specifically fix?

Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#32

Post by Ensorceled »

splike wrote: post #16
jopie wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbLK4RZDdzI

I don't know what your intention is in sharing this video, but isn't his response to the question posed perfectly reasonable? Al Gore has spent his life fighting climate change, believes we can combat it, and has personally invested in companies he believes can make that a reality. I don't see how this makes him a fraud in the slightest.

There are people who say: "He should put his money where his mouth is". There are people who say: "Of course he says that, he's got skin in the game."

Surprisingly, these are often the same people.

Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#33

Post by im3w1l »

crypt1d wrote: post #12

“Our democracy has been hacked.” is something that resonates with me very well. A select group of people have mastered media manipulation and are now acting as puppeteers while we are all in a state of confusion, no longer able to discern truth from disinformation. It is not classic censorship that worries me anymore. It is this constant bombardment with questionable data that we need to figure out how to battle, as…

It's about to get a lot worse. Realistic chat bots are only now coming into play. Soon there will be 10 bots per legitimate user in every online community that discusses politics.

Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#34

Post by cmahler7 »

mathgenius wrote: post #15
crypt1d wrote: post #12

“Our democracy has been hacked.” is something that resonates with me very well. A select group of people have mastered media manipulation and are now acting as puppeteers while we are all in a state of confusion, no longer able to discern truth from disinformation. It is not classic censorship that worries me anymore. It is this constant bombardment with questionable data that we need to figure out how to battle, as…

> questionable data that we need to figure out how to battle The reality of the situation seems obvious to me, even if the edges are not clearly defined. I don't think it's very difficult to work out what is going on (with climate change etc.) To me this is not about people getting access to good data, or being otherwise properly educated. It's about people identifying with "their group", and attacking the "others".…

Dividing the West and the United States in particular has been planned for a long time. Race, gender, income, politics all of it is being used to keep the plebes at each others throats.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3qkf3bajd4

Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#35

Post by viraptor »

benevol wrote: post #25
crypt1d wrote: post #12

“Our democracy has been hacked.” is something that resonates with me very well. A select group of people have mastered media manipulation and are now acting as puppeteers while we are all in a state of confusion, no longer able to discern truth from disinformation. It is not classic censorship that worries me anymore. It is this constant bombardment with questionable data that we need to figure out how to battle, as…

> We need some way to get out of the disinformation bubble There is even something that came a long time before IT and the resulting disinformation bubble: Very unhealthy and materialistic values, deeply embedded in our current culture. I.e., we are constantly being told that being rich, being popular and to dominate others is a very desirable target.

Is it really because we're told that? I mean, in very practical terms, being rich and popular (within reason) will give you better life in almost every way. Mainly because it allows you to choose what kind of life you want to lead. Also in case of any life accidents, having contacts and money, you can make lots of them easier to deal with. Dominating others is the only one I'm not sure of.

On a global scale, I think that's a bad situation. On a family scale, being rich is close to the healthiest thing you can do.

Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#36

Post by PhantomGremlin »

dwe3000 wrote: post #20
Kurtz79 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of people's actions have personal gain (be it money, power, recognition, sense of worth, etc...) as their main motive. But it does not make them necessarily wrong or worthless to others.

True, but I would appreciate a little integrity/honesty. He flies all over the world, multiple times in a short time span, and then makes his money "complaining" that we are using fossil fuels, when he could have just as easily been there via a teleconference. I don't mind people that walk the talk, but Al Gore avoids that.

He flies all over the world

There are a lot of "Gulfstream liberals" that fly around the world in private jets while telling the 99% how they should live.

This isn't limited to Al Gore. Jamie Dimon (CEO of JP Morgan) quipped this about Davos: "It is where billionaires tell millionaires what the middle class feels."

Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#37

Post by Yokohiii »

crypt1d wrote: post #12

“Our democracy has been hacked.” is something that resonates with me very well. A select group of people have mastered media manipulation and are now acting as puppeteers while we are all in a state of confusion, no longer able to discern truth from disinformation. It is not classic censorship that worries me anymore. It is this constant bombardment with questionable data that we need to figure out how to battle, as…

Manipulation is on both sides of the spectrum, so I wouldn't unconditionally trust Al Gore or The Guardian either. (Not necessarily denying the topic).

The media is simply by definition vulnerable to manipulation. At some point you have to trust someone who tells you the truth. There are many ways to bend the truth.

What we need is strong ethics and a strong backing of them.

Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#38

Post by maxerickson »

PacketPaul wrote: post #13
Overtonwindow wrote: post #3

Isn't Al Gore rich though? I'm bothered when the elite speak of others as if they're not part of that 1%.

How did he get so rich from a government salary?

He sold a large stake in a TV network that he was involved with after leaving office:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_TV

And it isn't like Congress is poorly compensated. Currently Senators are paid $174,000 a year.

Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#39

Post by ZenoArrow »

viraptor wrote: post #35
benevol wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We need some way to get out of the disinformation bubble There is even something that came a long time before IT and the resulting disinformation bubble: Very unhealthy and materialistic values, deeply embedded in our current culture. I.e., we are constantly being told that being rich, being popular and to dominate others is a very desirable target.

Is it really because we're told that? I mean, in very practical terms, being rich and popular (within reason) will give you better life in almost every way. Mainly because it allows you to choose what kind of life you want to lead. Also in case of any life accidents, having contacts and money, you can make lots of them easier to deal with. Dominating others is the only one I'm not sure of. On a global scale, I think…

> "On a family scale, being rich is close to the healthiest thing you can do."

I would say being self-reliant is the 'healthiest' thing you can do.

Being rich is a type of self-reliance, but it comes with its downsides. The biggest one is probably isolation. A disconnection from the world around you. Perhaps the world around you is 'unhealthy' so it makes some sense to be disconnected from it, but generally it's a downside.

Re: Al Gore: 'The rich have subverted all reason'

#40

Post by ZenoArrow »

polotics wrote: post #29
cmahler7 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a couple good articles by Scott Adams on things that would convince him on climate change. He mainly focuses on his experience with being able to manipulate models to show whatever you want them to show and what proportion is man-made vs natural. http://blog.dilbert.com/post/158159613566/how-to-convince-sk... http://blog.dilbert.com/post/158778029326/how-to-change-my-b...

Wow, so here is my otherwise -3 rated first post, it was posted to answer just what you & Scott wrote: Just in case a preemptive post for all shills and otherwise identity-impaired deniers. Please watch this presentation from Sheffield University: https ://youtu.be/7IbyiOoVgnQ Thank you

I'll watch the video, but whilst I do I'll put a question to you... Do you think the natural habitat of other animals on our planet should be protected?

That's the bigger question for me. I don't care if the planet is getting hotter or colder if biodiversity is being protected. Perhaps we should agree to stop driving species to extinction and let any decisions on climate be driven by that goal. Would you say that's a reasonable approach?

EDIT: Have watched the video. I can see you don't need convincing. Thanks for sharing it.

Here's the fixed video link, I'd recommend it to anyone who hasn't seen it:

https://youtu.be/7IbyiOoVgnQ

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