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Drawdown: The most comprehensive plan ever proposed to reverse Global Warming

drawdown.org

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Re: Drawdown: The most comprehensive plan ever proposed to reverse Global Warming

#71

Post by spenrose »

freshhawk wrote: post #64
spenrose wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Let's assume that for a moment all their numbers are correct (it's a huge assumption)" The entire framing of their approach is to only consider peer-reviewed literature -- holding themselves to the highest standard we have, the one most free of "assumption." It is rhetorically deceptive to open by characterizing them as making assumptions.

Only if you discount the evidence that we are almost always optimistic about these things at this stage of the research. Anyone good at doing high level policy accounts for the fact that you always need a lot of margin for optimistic error when combining multiple solutions.

Citation please. Bonus points for noting the irony that you are criticizing an impeccably supported work with sweeping (but unsupported) assertions.

Re: Drawdown: The most comprehensive plan ever proposed to reverse Global Warming

#72

Post by 0xbear »

spenrose wrote: post #63
0xbear wrote: post #11

Before proposing multi trillion dollar plans it'd be good to figure out how to model cloud cover and the effects of the oceans.

This comment constitutes gaslighting. The primary expression of climate change science, the IPCC, has been based on models which incorporate cloud cover and oceans for decades. Here is the first sentence of their landing page on models: "Numerical models (General Circulation Models or GCMs), representing physical processes in the atmosphere, ocean, cryosphere and land surface, are the most advanced tools currently av…

Read a bit further in the page you've linked.

Re: Drawdown: The most comprehensive plan ever proposed to reverse Global Warming

#73

Post by sctb »

fleevy wrote: post #4

Do people really still unironically believe in global warming? I mean how gullible can you possibly be.

We banned this account for only posting troll comments. There's nothing wrong with contrary opinions posted in a civil and substantive way on Hacker News, but that's not what this is.

Re: Drawdown: The most comprehensive plan ever proposed to reverse Global Warming

#74

Post by sctb »

malchow wrote: post #6
fleevy wrote: post #4

Do people really still unironically believe in global warming? I mean how gullible can you possibly be.

What do you mean? The planet is burning to a crisp. As predicted: – Mt. Kilimanjaro no longer has snow – As CO2 emissions keep rising, global temperatures keep rising, too, without any weird ten-year pauses at all – Intense storm incidence has increased – The Arctic has become ice-free – Polar bears are now extinct

Can you please not troll, or feed the trolls, or whatever is happening here?

Re: Drawdown: The most comprehensive plan ever proposed to reverse Global Warming

#75

Post by polotics »

graycat wrote: post #68
dagss wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am curious: Can you define a set of measurements and a year which, hypothetically, if measured, would convince you that global warming is happening? I.e., if we were to make a bet that both you and an IPCC-groupie like me would be convinced of winning, what would that bet look like? Or would any measurement that shows warming by definition come from a conspiracy?

Let's see, water vapor, CO2, and methane are greenhouse gasses which means that they absorb Planck black body infrared radiation from the surface of the earth. Since we can't see those gasses, they don't absorb visible light. There is CO2 from volcanoes. Since 70+ percent of the surface of the earth is covered by water, first-cut, ballpark 70+ percent of the volcanoes and CO2 from the volcanoes are under water, commo…

Wow, I am sorry but this is the perfect example of discursive pre-modern era way of analysing nature. Frankly the only excuse is if you're a time traveller just landed from the 1780's. Nowadays we do computer models, is yours on github? I will reuse your post it's just perfect. If you want to learn: https://youtu.be/7IbyiOoVgnQ

Re: Drawdown: The most comprehensive plan ever proposed to reverse Global Warming

#76

Post by ZeroGravitas »

acidburnNSA wrote: post #50

Nit picking on one issue: Nuclear. I'm glad they at least listed it as a solution but I feel that there's way too much agenda in here that isn't based on the science. It has potential to avoid emissions, but there are many reasons for concern: deadly meltdowns, tritium releases, abandoned uranium mines, mine-tailings pollution, radioactive waste, illicit plutonium trafficking, and thefts of missile material, among th…

I notice a contradiction in two of your points that happened to fall together:

Apparently nuclear displacing other generation saves many lives, yet Fukushima, which shut down Japan's Nuclear didn't cost any lives. It seems like your trying to have it both ways.

Re: Drawdown: The most comprehensive plan ever proposed to reverse Global Warming

#77

Post by ZeroGravitas »

freshhawk wrote: post #20

So zero political solutions here? Just a list of technological aspects of a solution? How can people not know that the problem here is getting people to do something, it is definitely not that we don't know what to do which is a minor problem in comparison. What about a group who have starving children and will clear-cut a forest to feed them no matter what agreements are in place? How much violence is used to enforc…

This is a political solution.

This provides lists of actions that countries would probably want to do anyway, and provides estimates of carbon savings. When trying to meet international treaties for reducing carbon emissions the countries now have a long list of positive actions they can take to make their countries stronger, cleaner and wealthier while meeting their goals.

Re: Drawdown: The most comprehensive plan ever proposed to reverse Global Warming

#78

Post by ZeroGravitas »

awinder wrote: post #49
freshhawk wrote: post #20

So zero political solutions here? Just a list of technological aspects of a solution? How can people not know that the problem here is getting people to do something, it is definitely not that we don't know what to do which is a minor problem in comparison. What about a group who have starving children and will clear-cut a forest to feed them no matter what agreements are in place? How much violence is used to enforc…

Climate refugees have a large shot at flipping the cost / benefit ratio here. If we can get someone to enthusiastically explain we need to solve this problem by paying labor in OH, PA etc to work together with scientists and businesses right now. Or else we are gonna pay relocating a bunch of people, paying for wars, and generally just wasting a ton of bad money. It’s a problem with solutions that could really unite…

All serious estimates I've seen suggest dealing with climate change is much cheaper than ignoring it (this Drawdown book agrees, and suggest 70 Trillion in benefits on a 20 Trillion investment).

I wouldn't be surprised if climate migration was included in those costs, though I guess in terms of human death and misery translated into monetary terms, rather than "ooh scary immigrants".

It's kind of weird how that has been successfully kept out of the conversation. Reminds me of all the headlines I read, even from sympathetic sources about the "high cost" of single payer healthcare, when again, serious estimates suggest it's cheaper overall.

Re: Drawdown: The most comprehensive plan ever proposed to reverse Global Warming

#79

Post by tim333 »

freshhawk wrote: post #20

So zero political solutions here? Just a list of technological aspects of a solution? How can people not know that the problem here is getting people to do something, it is definitely not that we don't know what to do which is a minor problem in comparison. What about a group who have starving children and will clear-cut a forest to feed them no matter what agreements are in place? How much violence is used to enforc…

Political arguing about CO2 and warming has been going on for 20 years or so and the atmospheric CO2 levels keep rising. If there is going to be a fix it will probably have a big tech aspect like solar + batteries becoming really cheap.

Re: Drawdown: The most comprehensive plan ever proposed to reverse Global Warming

#80

Post by tim333 »

cousin_it wrote: post #13

No geoengineering?

Yeah not sure about geoengineering but if you look at global CO2 emission and absorption, man made emissions are still small compared to nature - see this in giggatons https://static.skepticalscience.com/images/Carbon_Cycle.gif

From a practical point of view if you want to absorb huge amounts of CO2 finding ways to influence the natural processes might be the way.

(pic from https://www.skepticalscience.com/human-co2-smaller-than-natu...)

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