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Baltimore State Attorney Drops Dozens of Cases: Body Cam Shows Drug-Planting

baltimore.cbslocal.com

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Re: Baltimore State Attorney Drops Dozens of Cases: Body Cam Shows Drug-Planting

#51

Post by FireBeyond »

unabst wrote: post #43

There is an important distinction between someone who doesn't misbehave for fear of being watched, and someone who wishes to be watched in fear of the perception of misbehavior. There is no substitute for someone who's intent is to try and get away with things, and someone who's intent is to serve a cause, be of service, and not get away with anything. So really, we should build a system where the intent of transpare…

> 1. Super-incentivize snitching. Reward whistle-blowers to the point where it becomes an easy decision. Not only monetary, but with honor and with medals. Make it the new "right thing to do" in public service. Fight corruption. Easy sell.

They did this behind the Iron Curtain. At one point in Romania, 30% of the population were regularly reporting to the Secret Police. Wonder what the percent of false positives were?

Re: Baltimore State Attorney Drops Dozens of Cases: Body Cam Shows Drug-Planting

#52

Post by unabst »

FireBeyond wrote: post #51
unabst wrote: post #43

There is an important distinction between someone who doesn't misbehave for fear of being watched, and someone who wishes to be watched in fear of the perception of misbehavior. There is no substitute for someone who's intent is to try and get away with things, and someone who's intent is to serve a cause, be of service, and not get away with anything. So really, we should build a system where the intent of transpare…

> 1. Super-incentivize snitching. Reward whistle-blowers to the point where it becomes an easy decision. Not only monetary, but with honor and with medals. Make it the new "right thing to do" in public service. Fight corruption. Easy sell. They did this behind the Iron Curtain. At one point in Romania, 30% of the population were regularly reporting to the Secret Police. Wonder what the percent of false positives were…

Intentional false positives need to be super-disincentivized.

If all is well, the system would be open enough that the whistle blower can blow their whistle in the open. And everyone would support the investigation, and the parties on both sides. Eventually truth does need to exist regarding the why and what was reported.

Although, this wouldn't work where:

1. There are still enough bad guys who would punish this person in the locker room.

2. Situations where everyone is breaking the law, but enforcement is always with discretion. Like ebay where most listings violate something but aren't given a look until "someone" reports them. Or like overlooking jaywalking until someone of "interest" starts walking.

There must be other scenarios, but we can be on top of them.

Re: Baltimore State Attorney Drops Dozens of Cases: Body Cam Shows Drug-Planting

#53

Post by na85 »

johnpmayer wrote: post #32
na85 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly I think that anyone who applies to be a cop should be automatically blacklisted, and that police should be essentially conscripted for, say, $total_training_time + 2 years after education, the way some countries do with their military. To me, the mere act of wanting the authority to arrest and shoot your peers means you are the last person I want to have that power.

This is silly and short-sighted. There are many people who genuinely want to 'serve and protect', multiple generations in some families. Some people take duty very seriously and in good faith. Applying to be a cop in no way implies that a person holds arrests and the use of deadly force as anything other than a necessary component of the real-world, end-to-end justice system.

>There are many people who genuinely want to 'serve and protect',

Honestly, I doubt this is true for most values of "many".

I'm a straight white male in a first world country with no criminal record. I have a good job and am a well-behaved citizen. I've lived all over this country and my experiences with the police have been uniformly negative.

Thugs interested in proving to everyone that they're in charge, that's all they are.

Re: Baltimore State Attorney Drops Dozens of Cases: Body Cam Shows Drug-Planting

#54

Post by unclebucknasty »

unabst wrote: post #43

There is an important distinction between someone who doesn't misbehave for fear of being watched, and someone who wishes to be watched in fear of the perception of misbehavior. There is no substitute for someone who's intent is to try and get away with things, and someone who's intent is to serve a cause, be of service, and not get away with anything. So really, we should build a system where the intent of transpare…

Funny, the machinations we devise to skirt the core problem, which is an increasing dearth of fundamental moraltity.

Look around.. Something's gone completely wrong. Everyone is angry and there is decreasing value placed on kindness and decency. In fact, selfishness is increasingly a virtue. Observe how POTUS behaves. I don't care what side you're on, there is nothing normal or healthy about that level of chaos, narcissim, and mean-spiritedness. Yet, this is the leader of the free world? It's a sad reflection of where we are.

We can set up all the incentives and disincentives we can imagine but, as the saying goes, "you can't legislate morality". Until we deal with that issue, we'll continue to see all manner of its manifestations.

Re: Baltimore State Attorney Drops Dozens of Cases: Body Cam Shows Drug-Planting

#55

Post by aoeusnth1 »

unclebucknasty wrote: post #54
unabst wrote: post #43

There is an important distinction between someone who doesn't misbehave for fear of being watched, and someone who wishes to be watched in fear of the perception of misbehavior. There is no substitute for someone who's intent is to try and get away with things, and someone who's intent is to serve a cause, be of service, and not get away with anything. So really, we should build a system where the intent of transpare…

Funny, the machinations we devise to skirt the core problem, which is an increasing dearth of fundamental moraltity. Look around.. Something's gone completely wrong. Everyone is angry and there is decreasing value placed on kindness and decency. In fact, selfishness is increasingly a virtue. Observe how POTUS behaves. I don't care what side you're on, there is nothing normal or healthy about that level of chaos, narc…

Thank you. I feel like one of the few people in my friend group that isn't becoming radicalized, anti-democracy, anti-free-speech all sacrificed in favor of Justice. But what kind of justice can an authoritarian mono-Party state bring about?

Re: Baltimore State Attorney Drops Dozens of Cases: Body Cam Shows Drug-Planting

#56

Post by gleenn »

doug1001 wrote: post #34
na85 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly I think that anyone who applies to be a cop should be automatically blacklisted, and that police should be essentially conscripted for, say, $total_training_time + 2 years after education, the way some countries do with their military. To me, the mere act of wanting the authority to arrest and shoot your peers means you are the last person I want to have that power.

during my four-year hitch in the Corps, a quick poll of the first-term enlisted jarheads in a USMC infantry battalion, asking "what are you going to do when you're hitch is up?" the most frequent answer would have been "become a cop" and these were guys who, when off-duty, wore t-shirts with aphorisms like "kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out" and "join the Marines, travel to exotic places, meet interesting people, an…

Very anecdotal but after 5 years of living in San Jose, I was very scared of police. I've never had a problem with police, but the times I did there were terrible. I was pretty appalled at their behavior and I wasn't doing anything serious at all. I also heard of people throwing parties, getting in trouble, and being beaten. That was a second hand story though. One of the big reasons I left was fear of the police there.

Re: Baltimore State Attorney Drops Dozens of Cases: Body Cam Shows Drug-Planting

#57

Post by jussij »

akira2501 wrote: post #39
myrandomcomment wrote: post #20

We need to live in a country where the law enforcement agencies are above reproach. There are 3 things we can do for this. 1. Pay for officers should be high without overtime. 2. Stop militarizing everyday law enforcement. 3. Body cams on at all times. Cameras on police cars should be on at all times.

I want two more important steps: 4. The video is archived for at least 90 days, with 360 being preferable. 5. The video is immediately encrypted when it is stored and should only be accessible by the district attorneys office.

> should only be accessible by the district attorneys office.

Why the need for such a high level of secrecy?

From outside of the US, the picture I get of the police force and the bodies that control them is they have a tendency to try and keep things secret.

I would have though a more open system would instil a much higher level of public confidence in that policing system.

Re: Baltimore State Attorney Drops Dozens of Cases: Body Cam Shows Drug-Planting

#58

Post by raldi »

rhizome wrote: post #25
moretai wrote: post #23

what's the argument against not having body cameras on at all times?

Privacy. That sometimes they go to the bathroom, or talk on the phone to their families.

What's the argument against having body cameras on at all times that they're interacting with the public, other than when the person they're talking to specifically requests that the camera be turned off?

Re: Baltimore State Attorney Drops Dozens of Cases: Body Cam Shows Drug-Planting

#59

Post by PhasmaFelis »

na85 wrote: post #28
myrandomcomment wrote: post #20

We need to live in a country where the law enforcement agencies are above reproach. There are 3 things we can do for this. 1. Pay for officers should be high without overtime. 2. Stop militarizing everyday law enforcement. 3. Body cams on at all times. Cameras on police cars should be on at all times.

Frankly I think that anyone who applies to be a cop should be automatically blacklisted, and that police should be essentially conscripted for, say, $total_training_time + 2 years after education, the way some countries do with their military. To me, the mere act of wanting the authority to arrest and shoot your peers means you are the last person I want to have that power.

Yeah, giving guns and arrest powers to a bunch of bitter, angry people who'd rather be doing anything else sounds like a great idea.

Besides which, you really think that people only become cops for the power? No one ever honestly wants to protect and serve their community? There's a lot of problems with American police right now, but it can be so much worse.

Re: Baltimore State Attorney Drops Dozens of Cases: Body Cam Shows Drug-Planting

#60

Post by _fk6q »

unabst wrote: post #43

There is an important distinction between someone who doesn't misbehave for fear of being watched, and someone who wishes to be watched in fear of the perception of misbehavior. There is no substitute for someone who's intent is to try and get away with things, and someone who's intent is to serve a cause, be of service, and not get away with anything. So really, we should build a system where the intent of transpare…

On books, everything you say makes sense in the ideal world. But in practicable reality, things are a bit more complicated.

Re: item 1, Baltimore is the birthplace of the "Stop Snitchin'" movement, a heavily distributed and well marketed street campaign defining a dynamic that a wiki entry can't possibly describe accurately. The bigger point is that it had a counter-campaign on the police side which retaliated against it, and that thinking got ingrained in the troops. In other words, officers stick together and no policy change will realistically affect that.

After the Baltimore riots, there was a change on the police side - cultural change, not policy or regulation based one. As a result, homicide rate shot up through the roof and appears to be rising year after year. This behavior is a defensive mechanism and so incredibly tribal - not something you can set through policy, short of replacing 3,000 cops.

To that point, most of Baltimore PD cops DO NOT live in Baltimore. They travel to work from outside. In other words, despite having 3,000 job positions in the city, they couldn't fill them locally so they expanded outward, allowing officers to take cruisers home as a commuting incentive. Think about evaluating that factor - would you want to employ cops who live in your neighborhood, or ones from a neighboring town? Would there be a difference? Then think what would happen if you didn't have a choice.

Re: item 2, you're describing lex talionis, which we as a society abandoned centuries ago. You can't practice treating crimes differently based on who the person is, even if they're cops.

In Baltimore, there are 3,000 cops for 600,000 citizens. Median cop salary is $50k and it's a dangerous and difficult job. Tons of them turn to overtime work to make ends meet and are drained of energy (look up Baltimore Sun overtime database if curious). Meanwhile, the vast poor citizens there have a median income of $30k. That's an indicator of why people turn to crime and its volume. Living in the city is prohibitively expensive (sweet mercy, the property taxes are terrifying - it's no incentive to buy a house there.)

It's really messy.

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