It only covers two types of solutions, reducing carbon emissions and carbon sequestration. What about more extreme or dangerous solutions such as weather manipulation and reflecting solar energy through materials in orbit?
Drawdown: The most comprehensive plan ever proposed to reverse Global Warming
61–70 of 95 posts
Re: Drawdown: The most comprehensive plan ever proposed to reverse Global Warming
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have a pet theory that there is some self indulgent delusion in not recognizing the real issue in order to preemptively take the high ground for an "I told you so." In many multiplayer games for example, I've seen many support or healer character be the most toxic. By playing the non-fun helper healer, he or she takes the high ground to blame the rest of the team, oblivious that the toxicity is destroying the real…
Counter theory: People who really really want to win play less-fun more-important characters. EDIT: And then when they don't win they get upset.
Re: Drawdown: The most comprehensive plan ever proposed to reverse Global Warming
#63Before proposing multi trillion dollar plans it'd be good to figure out how to model cloud cover and the effects of the oceans.
"Numerical models (General Circulation Models or GCMs), representing physical processes in the atmosphere, ocean, cryosphere and land surface, are the most advanced tools currently available for simulating the response of the global climate system to increasing greenhouse gas concentrations (criterion 1 -- see list here)."
Re: Drawdown: The most comprehensive plan ever proposed to reverse Global Warming
#64Let's assume that for a moment all their numbers are correct (it's a huge assumption) and let's also assume that they will all be achieved (cough). Their numbers add up to approximately 100% of 2017 annual fossil fuel emissions. That means that all of the excess CO2 currently in the atmosphere is beyond the reach of the combined 80 solutions they propose. Greenhouse gas production rates continue to increase (Earth ha…
"Let's assume that for a moment all their numbers are correct (it's a huge assumption)" The entire framing of their approach is to only consider peer-reviewed literature -- holding themselves to the highest standard we have, the one most free of "assumption." It is rhetorically deceptive to open by characterizing them as making assumptions.
Anyone good at doing high level policy accounts for the fact that you always need a lot of margin for optimistic error when combining multiple solutions.
Re: Drawdown: The most comprehensive plan ever proposed to reverse Global Warming
#65Howdy! I work in cleantech, and I guess it's that time again for a what-can-you-do-about-it post :) To start, here's my favorite climate change joke: "They say we won't act until it's too late... Luckily, it's too late!" ==So what can you do about it?== The biggest thing this article doesn't say that is most relevant to the HN audience is that you can work at a new energy technology company! Our industries are out of…
I have a background in electrical/computer engineering, but much of that has faded from memory. For the past 15 years I've been a software developer, starting out in the embedded space, and today working on cloud telecom. I feel like I don't have the background or domain knowledge required to break into a career in clean energy, though it's a space that interests me a lot (both intellectually, and because of survival…
Re: Drawdown: The most comprehensive plan ever proposed to reverse Global Warming
#66So zero political solutions here? Just a list of technological aspects of a solution? How can people not know that the problem here is getting people to do something, it is definitely not that we don't know what to do which is a minor problem in comparison. What about a group who have starving children and will clear-cut a forest to feed them no matter what agreements are in place? How much violence is used to enforc…
Doesn't it seem though that politics is a deadlock, with nations playing a game of chicken that has no winner? It's a case of the tragedy of the commons. No power broker is going to sacrifice their economy or political backers enough to make a difference, as there would always be someone else with a more short term view take advantage of their temporary weakness. It seems that there is no feasible solution other than…
There is a historically effective solution to those problems, the one we all hate to think about, that has a high likelihood of failure, causes massive amounts of suffering and has multi-generation length unintended consequences: violence.
Re: Drawdown: The most comprehensive plan ever proposed to reverse Global Warming
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
Doesn't it seem though that politics is a deadlock, with nations playing a game of chicken that has no winner? It's a case of the tragedy of the commons. No power broker is going to sacrifice their economy or political backers enough to make a difference, as there would always be someone else with a more short term view take advantage of their temporary weakness. It seems that there is no feasible solution other than…
You are right, but only if you discount the more extreme solutions to those tragedy of the commons/power broker problems. There is a historically effective solution to those problems, the one we all hate to think about, that has a high likelihood of failure, causes massive amounts of suffering and has multi-generation length unintended consequences: violence.
Re: Drawdown: The most comprehensive plan ever proposed to reverse Global Warming
#68Do people really still unironically believe in global warming? I mean how gullible can you possibly be.
I am curious: Can you define a set of measurements and a year which, hypothetically, if measured, would convince you that global warming is happening? I.e., if we were to make a bet that both you and an IPCC-groupie like me would be convinced of winning, what would that bet look like? Or would any measurement that shows warming by definition come from a conspiracy?
Since we can't see those gasses, they don't absorb visible light.
There is CO2 from volcanoes. Since 70+ percent of the surface of the earth is covered by water, first-cut, ballpark 70+ percent of the volcanoes and CO2 from the volcanoes are under water, commonly 3-7 miles down. We know that ocean volcanoes are important because they are responsible for a major fraction of all the smaller islands in the oceans.
We know that there is a lot of CO2 dissolved in the oceans and that cooler water absorbs more CO2 and warmer water, less. So, first-cut, we have to suspect that warming of the surface of the oceans, from any source at all, will release CO2 into the atmosphere and cooling of the surface of the oceans will absorb CO2 from the atmosphere.
We know from the ice core samples going back 800,000 years or so that about 800 years after the start of some significant warming, atmospheric CO2 concentrations increased.
We know that for about the last 20 years, we have been able to measure some significant increase in atmospheric CO2 concentrations but saw nearly no measurable increase in global average atmospheric temperatures. So, this time, really, higher CO2 didn't cause higher temperatures.
Clearly first-cut, if higher CO2 concentrations increase temperature, then lower CO2 concentrations will reduce temperature.
From the ice core and other historical data, both temperature and atmospheric CO2 concentrations have varied significantly. But (1) in this whole record, not once was significant cooling closely preceded by significantly lower atmospheric CO2 concentrations, and (2) only once, since the coolest part of the Little Ice Age, have significantly higher temperatures been closely preceded by significantly higher atmospheric CO2 concentrations.
Indeed, in recent years, from 1940 to 1970 CO2 concentrations, from human activities, volcanoes, ocean out gassing, or whatever increased significantly but global average atmospheric temperatures actually fell enough to be measured. So, there higher CO2 led to lower temperature, not higher.
Conclusion: The idea that changes in CO2 concentrations have been a major cause of changes in temperature are refuted. Instead, there must be other causes that in the historical record have been much, much more important, that is, caused many more temperature changes, than CO2.
For more, no one is claiming that the cooling of the LIttle Ice Age was caused by lower CO2 concentrations -- the cause of the Little Ice Age was not lower CO2. Then, sure, first-cut, the cause of coming out of the Little Ice Age, which really is the recent warming, should have been from a reversal of the cause of going into that period and, thus, not CO2, from humans or anything else.
For more, the Medieval Warm period was warmer than now without relatively high CO2 concentrations. So, current temperatures are not unique, and the last time the cause was not CO2 -- so, we have to wonder if this time current temperatures are due to CO2.
If concerned about global average atmospheric temperature, looking at CO2 is "digging in the wrong place" and is very much "the wrong stuff".
From the historical record, it's fully clear that CO2 has little or no effect on temperature.
For more, many efforts were made to model CO2 in the atmosphere and the resulting effects on global average atmospheric temperature. The models made temperature predictions for future years. Many of those models and predictions are summarized in a graph at
http://www.energyadvocate.com/gc1.jpg
By now we can compare the model predictions with actual temperatures.
Results: From nearly all the models, the temperatures predicted were way too high.
Conclusion: Nearly all the models failed to correspond to reality.
In science, we try to make predictions. When the predictions from some candidate science are badly wrong, then we junk the candidate science. So, we have to junk the techniques of the models.
Consequences: We are left with no meaningful way to predict the effects of CO2 on temperature.
As above, we already know that CO2 has from at most a minor role down to no significant role at all in global atmospheric average temperature and that other causes dominate.
In particular we have no meaningful science that says that CO2 from human activity has significantly warmed the atmosphere or will in the foreseeable future.
To have the world spend trillions of dollars on reductions in CO2 from human activities would cause massive destruction of our economies and is not justified.
For more, to consider CO2 seriously, we would have to consider volcanoes including in the oceans and CO2 in and from the oceans, and so far we have no good way to do that.
There is a theory for the cause of temperature changes that actually closely fits the historical record of temperature change. That cause is the level of sun spot activity. More sun spots cause warming. How? Clouds have a net cooling effect. A significant fraction of clouds are caused by water droplets caused by cosmic rays. More sun spots cause more solar wind which blocks cosmic rays, slows cloud formation, and causes warming.
Sorry, it would be nice to have solid science for the climate, science that would let us predict the climate accurately and, in particular, the effects on climate from various levels of CO2 from human activities. So far, first-cut, the evidence is that CO2 from human activities is having no significant effect on climate at all.
Really, it appears that to predict global average atmospheric temperatures, we should focus on predicting sun spots.
To explain the high interest in global warming, f'get about science and, instead, do something much simpler that makes much more sense, just follow the money.
The Mayans killed people to pour their blood on a rock to keep the sun moving across the sky. Lowering human sources of CO2 to slow global warming is no better founded.
I have a suggestion: Suit up Saint Laureate Al Guru and send him to the sun to do a close up, hands on, field study of sun spots. Then we will take up the subject of global warming when he returns.
Re: Drawdown: The most comprehensive plan ever proposed to reverse Global Warming
#69Nit picking on one issue: Nuclear. I'm glad they at least listed it as a solution but I feel that there's way too much agenda in here that isn't based on the science. It has potential to avoid emissions, but there are many reasons for concern: deadly meltdowns, tritium releases, abandoned uranium mines, mine-tailings pollution, radioactive waste, illicit plutonium trafficking, and thefts of missile material, among th…
"there's way too much agenda in here that isn't based on the science" 1) The concerns they list are the actual concerns of significant segments of the population. Such as e.g. an overwhelming majority of the German electorate. 2) I personally think that some of those concerns are overweighted. You apparently do as well. 3) Failing to weigh those concerns the way you and I do does not constitute "having an agenda not…
But you're right that they're parroting what many people would parrot because that's how social memes work. I guess it's on me to expose more people to reasoning that convinces them that atomic energy is a good path in our fight against climate change.
Re: Drawdown: The most comprehensive plan ever proposed to reverse Global Warming
#70It only covers two types of solutions, reducing carbon emissions and carbon sequestration. What about more extreme or dangerous solutions such as weather manipulation and reflecting solar energy through materials in orbit?