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Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

nytimes.com

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Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#401

Post by sureshv »

sievebrain wrote: post #294
simonh wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many of Apple's devices are manufactured in China? The Chinese Government could completely cripple Apple in a second. It really isn't Apple that has the leverage. Censorship is fundamental to Chinese government policy. It's totally non-negotiable. You either do as they say, or you don't operate in China. No negotiation, no compromise. Given the manufacturing situation China has Apple by the short and curlies, and…

Yet somehow Google manages to make phones and not cooperate with China.

By outsourcing manufacturing to HTC, LG, and Motorola...

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#402

Post by dlwdlw »

enraged_camel wrote: post #198
xienze wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You cannot do business in China without doing what they tell you. Of course, I get that. But it's always companies like Apple that make so much noise about social justice who don't stick to their guns when China's involved.

I don't get your complaint at all. What would you rather have them do? What would "sticking to their guns" involve? Or would you rather have them not "make so much noise" about social justice?

Sanction based behavior is just another form a bullying. It's not much different than physical, psychological or social bullying.

Similar to bullying, it doesn't work when the target can fight back. Sanction based actions just seem like bullshit to me and is actually exactly what China wants. It gives space for domestic equivalents to grow. (the trick is to having your self created monopoly not rot is to keep it in its toes)

China for better or worse is becoming (is) a global power. It's the only country that is managing efficiently at its scale so criticisms fall flat. It's great for western indignation for them to feel-good about themselves. The realization that the previous bullying is no longer working creates the same sense of desperation and grasping for relevance that trump supporters have.

I'd rather the market make the decisions. Not because they don't have failure points but because they organically create understanding through mixing of values. The non-organic too down forcing of value systems doesn't work unless one party can effectively bully the other.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#403

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

19890903 wrote: post #234
idlewords wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an Apple business decision.

100% agree. Their business, their rules.

And our prerogative to judge them when they behave unethically.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#404

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

dilap wrote: post #276
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you don't agree to their rules you don't play in their sandbox. And if you make choices they have consequences. Those consequences include that people in the west will lose respect for your company, complain about it, patronize competitors, propose laws to punish it, etc. If that puts the company in a bind, good. They're a multi-billion dollar international corporation. They have to choose between morals and pro…

You really think the mature thing to do is to cut off an entire country because you disagree with their political system? That seems very extreme to me.

We need not cut them off. We behave ethically regardless, and if they choose to cut themselves off as a result that's on them.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#406

Post by humanrebar »

archagon wrote: post #361
humanrebar wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Valid first principles aren't subject to tradition. In less abstract terms, the case is that abridging speech, especially political speech, is dehumanizing, inherently subjective (therefore unjust), a key tool for tyrrany, and harmful on the whole. It also reduces accountability by limiting the availability of facts and investigations. None of that says anything about democracy, capitalism, or the West.

And yet, there are clearly potential upsides to abridging free speech. As an example from the Western world, in Germany, hate speech laws are used to forestall the spread of harmful ideologies. I think it's common for people in our corner of the world to believe that abridging speech changes nothing — that people will still believe whatever they want to believe behind closed doors — but I strongly suspect that shapin…

Everyone has first principles. There are things everyone thinks are heinous regardless if the context.

The freedom to call for genocide isn't a fundamental right. The freedom to criticize leadership is.

Finally, there are upsides to lots of unconscionable things. At one time, slavery was a cornerstone of the American economy. The question isn't whether there is an upside. The question is whether it's right.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#407

Post by jliptzin »

sievebrain wrote: post #296
jliptzin wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is doing that? Corporations exist only to generate profit for their shareholders and they aren't shy about admitting that

It's not the case. Show me the law that says that. You can't be there isn't one - it's perfectly possible for companies to take moral stands and many do. Consider that both Google and Facebook have no presence in China.

Those are exceptions not the rule. I would bet that at least 99.9% of corporations in this country would open up shop in china if it were profitable to do so.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#408

Post by m3kw9 »

honksillet wrote: post #232
enraged_camel wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get your complaint at all. What would you rather have them do? What would "sticking to their guns" involve? Or would you rather have them not "make so much noise" about social justice?

Don't do business in china! It's that simple. If you can't do business in a local without getting blood on your hands, then don't do business there.

Easy for a iphone tapper in to say until it affects you

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#409

Post by derefr »

ethbro wrote: post #305
honksillet wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't do business in china! It's that simple. If you can't do business in a local without getting blood on your hands, then don't do business there.

This. A market being large isn't an excuse for bloody hands. Furthermore, don't let Chinese companies trade on US exchanges if they participate in human rights abuses. Everyone knows what the Chinese government is doing strategically with leveraging access to their markets in exchange for control and forced tech transfer. Other countries are well within their moral rights to insist upon a quid pro quo... or else do t…

The problem for product companies is that the secondary market still exists, and people's perceptions of a brand can be affected by its secondary market just as well as they can by its primary market.

If Apple isn't in China, that doesn't mean that nobody will be able to sell iPhones in China. That just means that Apple won't be selling iPhones in China. But someone, somewhere will still be importing iPhones into China, and people will buy them, and people will associate the resulting product experience with Apple. Those people will then blog about that experience, putting their perceptions on the world stage, where people in other countries' perceptions of the product can be affected by that conversation.

Which means that, if Apple has no Chinese app-store, then people in America will end up thinking worse of Apple. The American zeitgeist will be touched by Chinese-Americans who read Chinese-language blogs written by people living in China, where the experience of having an iPhone will suck because Apple "doesn't support China."

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#410

Post by dane-pgp »

jonny_eh wrote: post #393
resf wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would harm Chinese people. If you lived in China, would you consider an iPhone or a Chinese phone to be more secure against intrusion?

If Apple is willing to revoke apps that China doesn't like, are they willing to add secret encryption backdoors too? Where do they draw the line?

You're right that a clear dividing line is needed here. To be fair to Apple, though, they have given this official statement on the matter:

"As we have stated before, Apple has never worked with any government agency from any country to create a backdoor in any of our products or services. We have also never allowed access to our servers. And we never will. It’s something we feel very strongly about."

https://www.apple.com/cn/your-location-privacy/#english

It is perhaps notable that Apple is not trying to hide or deny this removal of VPN apps (not that they could really do that effectively). As long as Apple is open about its policies, then we have our clear dividing line (and it would be unreasonable to expect Apple to think of every conceivable future technological/policy question in advance).

Still, this is assuming that we can trust Apple to admit its policies, and moreover to consistently follow them, which even governments seem to have trouble doing. It would be nice to instead have technological ecosystems where end users and citizens didn't have to trust the policies and promises of powerful organisations.

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