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Cicada: A Distributed Direct Democracy and Decentralized Application Platform

github.com

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Re: Cicada: A Distributed Direct Democracy and Decentralized Application Platform

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think I'd like direct democracy, but after living in California for a few years I realized it wasn't at all what I'd expected. Intelligently voting on an issue requires you to invest a lot of time in understanding the topic, its pros and cons, and any far-reaching effects. It's almost like a full-time job, which is why we elect representatives!

The problem is that governance is complex that representatives are in many respects just incompetent voters. We elect a lot of lawyers because they're skilled in both assimilation and evaluation, but the upshot is legalism, procedural paralysis, exponential growth of the legal corpus, inaccessibility to the citizenry, and factionalism.

I'd actually consider "procedural paralysis" a feature. Writing laws and making changes in such a complex system must be done with extreme care and deliberation.

The government is like a huge monolithic repo!

Re: Cicada: A Distributed Direct Democracy and Decentralized Application Platform

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see a lot more libertarian ideology appear on the front page than anything else, politics-wise, even if there's reasonable arguments in the comments. From blockchains to direct democracy to universal income, and a while back, an incredible amount of writings on property rights for some reason.

Universal income is not a libertarian idea, it's socialist. Block chains are a technology, nothing more, nothing less. Big banks are using them and they have nothing to do with libertarianism. Direct democracy is orthogonal to libertarianism. Structure of government is independent of desired role of government. Calls for direct democracy have surged from liberals in the US after the second wrath of the electoral coll…

Universal income as a replacement for all current Government social support functions is an idea that came out of libertarian-leaning ideology - it's a really, really good method of removing the Government's role in social support, and forcing people to take control of their own lives. Socialists support a universal income only so far as it doesn't massively affect various support functions the Government currently performs - i.e. they don't really support it, since that's untenable.

PoW and PoS blockchains follow libertarian ideology and fundamentally libertarian ideas of how the world should work - "no ability for the Government to see what you're doing and tax it" is pretty much the rallying cry of its proponents, or it was about three years ago when I was into it. (Oh, along with a healthy dose of "companies can do no wrong, and if they do, it's your fault".) The political goal is to remove the Government's (and therefore the banks') role in trade. Centralised "blockchains" as used by banks are irrelevant there, and shouldn't even use the same word.

Direct democracy is, unfortunately, something that heavily overlaps with libertarian ideology - again, it severely shrinks or removes the role of Government in political decision-making processes.

Re: Cicada: A Distributed Direct Democracy and Decentralized Application Platform

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you would still have a balance of power so that a court could overturn a law created by direct democracy Presumably based on the laws this direct democracy enacts? Observe California and imagine if every single law had to be passed through referendum. The system fails because people don't compromise across large, unaccountable groups. Direct democracy is better used as a check on a small group of leaders, e.g. a ri…

> imagine if every single law had to be passed through referendum And what do you think will happen then? I hope you respect the readers by not assuming that it will be paper ballot referendums.

Ok so the referendum is now digital and uses fancy blockchain technology. And that changes what exactly?

Re: Cicada: A Distributed Direct Democracy and Decentralized Application Platform

#124
If the past years have shown anything then that blockchain software - like any software - needs continous development, maintaining, bug fixing, clarification of edge cases, etc. In a world where "leaders are replaced with code", where does that place the Cicada developers?

Re: Cicada: A Distributed Direct Democracy and Decentralized Application Platform

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We know multiple ways to reliably identify someone using biological markers with near-perfect accuracy. Yes, that lack of perfection leaves open the possibility of subversion, but so what? You'll grow old and die waiting for the perfect solution.

And those are not subject to replay attacks?

This seems to me like the whole misadventure of putting finger print readers in door locks and phones: Someone noticed that fingerprints work quite well for identifying people in customs and law enforcement and simplified that thought to "fingerprints can identify people" - ignoring the circumstances of how fingerprints are taken when they work.

Re: Cicada: A Distributed Direct Democracy and Decentralized Application Platform

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universal income is not a libertarian idea, it's socialist. Block chains are a technology, nothing more, nothing less. Big banks are using them and they have nothing to do with libertarianism. Direct democracy is orthogonal to libertarianism. Structure of government is independent of desired role of government. Calls for direct democracy have surged from liberals in the US after the second wrath of the electoral coll…

Universal income as a replacement for all current Government social support functions is an idea that came out of libertarian-leaning ideology - it's a really, really good method of removing the Government's role in social support, and forcing people to take control of their own lives. Socialists support a universal income only so far as it doesn't massively affect various support functions the Government currently p…

> Universal income [...] came out of libertarian-leaning ideology - it's a really, really good method of removing the Government's role

I don't think it's meaningful to credit the idea to a single ideology. It's an idea that has popped up many times, in many forms, over time. I first came across it as a tool to ensure basic human dignity for all, which is more important to me than silly discussions about "big" or "small" government.

> Socialists support a universal income only so far as it doesn't massively affect various support functions the Government currently performs

That, too, is an overly broad statement. The Socialists I know who oppose universal income all do it (a) because they think that labor is a value in itself, and that everybody should work, or (b) because they somehow think that a basic income profits Big Capital. I haven't heard any say that they think five government support programs are better than one government support program.

Making everything about government size seems to be a US thing. These are not discussions we usually have in Europe. (Except, sometimes, about the EU itself.)

Re: Cicada: A Distributed Direct Democracy and Decentralized Application Platform

#127
post #12

Governments take thousands of decisions. Can we really expect people to dedicate their time to vote all the time on these decisions? We risk ending up with a "democracy" where the power is really in the end of people having enough time and / or skin in the game to actually vote. Voter fatigue is already a known effect where places that vote the most are also the ones with the lowest turnout. California and Switzerlan…

I used to think I'd like direct democracy, but after living in California for a few years I realized it wasn't at all what I'd expected. Intelligently voting on an issue requires you to invest a lot of time in understanding the topic, its pros and cons, and any far-reaching effects. It's almost like a full-time job, which is why we elect representatives!

>It's almost like a full-time job, which is why we elect representatives!

We elect representatives because our history is dictatorial, and each step taken toward a more democratic system has been a compromise after a revolt between the ruler(s) and the ruled.

That usually means leaving them with some power.

Direct democracy doesn't mean that you have to make an intelligent decision on every single topic, ever. It means you can choose which topics to make decisions on and which topics you want to delegate to somebody else and whom to delegate it to.

It would still mean that you could delegate your vote on decisions about regulating the Internet to notorious full time job holder Ted Stevens if you really wanted.

Re: Cicada: A Distributed Direct Democracy and Decentralized Application Platform

#128
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The system fails because people don't compromise across large, unaccountable groups. The solution: don't group people who are uncompromisingly different from each-other into the same democracy. Group them into separate democracies, and then have them interact with one-another through their state (by treaty, trade, war, etc.) rather than by trying to all be part of one giant family.

The problem is the same when with 1 million people in a small area. You can't break San Jose into separate democracies.

Given globalism, many cultures with clashing political beliefs tend to end up as residents of the same countries, states, counties, cities, even individual ridings. Representative democracy was never designed for this use-case. Countries—or at least city-states—used to have pretty uniform cultures overall.

So, a much bigger bullet to bite: if we want representative democracy to continue to function under global-freedom-of-movement conditions, we might have to legislate some form of incentivization toward "intentional communities" that have more self-coherent political zeitgeists, such that the representatives of those communities can actually faithfully represent some clear set of beliefs, rather than just pandering vaguely to mutually-conflicting beliefs.

In short: it's culture ghettos or disenfranchisement.

(My evidence for this stance is that existing self-selected culture ghettos—the Chinatowns and Little Indias of the world, when they're large enough to "run themselves" as cities/townships in a regional district—actually tend to have local laws and policies that a supermajority of their residents prefer, and very little in the way of complaints. When most everyone in a place is from one culture, it's much simpler for everyone in that place to agree on what they want; and then it's much more evident when local politicians are doing a bad job of giving them what they want, so they tend to oust those until they end up with effective politicians.)

Re: Cicada: A Distributed Direct Democracy and Decentralized Application Platform

#130
post #44

First of all, regardless of all the claims made in the document, I find it awesome to see such a gigantic writeup that tries to be at least a bit internally consistent. It reminds me of Bit451 [1][2], although that one was simply insane. So about Cicada: the document quickly notes that the 'human unique identifier' is at the core of the proposal. It is claimed that it "allows us to prevent Sybil attacks and ensure ev…

Thanks for posting this. It's always interesting to see people's reactions to my work.

Usually when people do find it though, the series of comments that follow it tend to fall into a few categories. I will paraphrase and give my answer to these questions generically rather than answer every individual question:

1) "I've zeroed in on this one aspect of the system instead of the whole and found a flaw that invalidates the whole thing."

In particular this comes up around the subject of an ID. Usually it centers on "biometrics are how the system is secured, those are gameable, this will never work." In fact, the primary method of controlling the spread of fake IDs is the reputation system is NOT the biometrics system which is merely a first barrier to entry. It is the reputation system. And that reputation system is different from rep systems that exist today which basically consist of people voting thumbs up or thumbs down which is not what I describe. Most of the misunderstanding around that is because the original paper was not as clear as it could be on that aspect, so I wrote up a second paper that breaks down the ID system and Rep Bank in much more detail. That paper is here:

https://github.com/the-laughing-monkey/cicada-platform/blob/...

2) "This will never work because of XYZ reason I just thought up after glancing at this a few seconds."

Those questions are always answered in the document. I encourage you to actually read and do so with an open mind.

3) Some comment/focus on whatever my supposed ideology is.

People have zero idea what my ideology is and debating something based on whatever you imagine my ideology to be is not very useful. It's a fallacy of composition. Also my ideology can't be deduced from the paper, largely because I don't much like ideologies and I don't really have one. I look at every problem or issue atomically, to be solved on its own merits, thus my beliefs run the gamut. Also, whatever I think about things is pretty much irrelevant. The system stands on its own and it has nothing to do with what I do or don't believe. The only thing I really believe is "locking in open" as Tim Berners-Lee put it. That is: open systems are better and decentralized systems in particular are key to the future.

4) "Direct democracy can't work because people get tired or aren't smart enough to vote on everything."

I outline many solutions to this, in particular systems that can vote for you based on answering a series of questions, or systems that work in hybrid mode that allow you to vote on only the things that really matter to you, say abortion and guns, as well as full voting so that you can vote on everything if you are a highly engaged citizen. I also propose an easy solution to the California ballot problem where every stupid thing comes up for vote and where stuff only gets on there based on big money. It routes votes to ever increasing numbers of users and only the absolute most important votes would ever make it a national vote. Lastly the system allows for expert panels to create legislation that is fast tracked by the system. This would be a dramatic improvement on what we have now where unqualified politicians vote on everything from science to military to personal issues. Having groups of competing economists propose bills, or scientists writing science policy would be a major improvement to the current system. Lastly, the paper also outlines a method for breaking down bills into simpler terms for various folks to make it easier to read them and engage with them.

5) "You're an idiot, why even bother doing something like this?"

This is utterly pointless commentary that comes from folks who haven't done much and spend most of their life running other people down for trying something new. Not very useful or cool.

6) Not understanding that every single layer of the system expects some level of exploitation and it doesn't matter if you found a few ways to game it.

The system always trusts there will be some level of gaming the system. It's expected and dealt with. Central systems are not a panacea to this, despite most arguments thinking that's the case. Their is all kinds of exploitation of centralized IDs for instance. The decentralized ID system will have some level of people hacking it and it really won't matter as long as the system is resilient enough to keep the blast confined and to update itself to deal with new attacks, which the build in security chain combined with the reputation systems deals with very effectively.

7) I get it and how do we build it? Congrats. Join decstack.com and let's talk.

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