If you build in the ability to censor, you can't disclaim responsibility when a state makes you do it. We'll see the same sort of thing in Russia, the UK, and so on. Apple can still act, if they wish, by not locking down their users. I know that'd be a big step for them.
Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship
391–400 of 449 posts
Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship
#392Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't get your complaint at all. What would you rather have them do? What would "sticking to their guns" involve? Or would you rather have them not "make so much noise" about social justice?
> What would "sticking to their guns" involve? Leave the apps in the app store and make the government make the next move. They're fucking Apple, they can do a lot to help finally topple that mess. It's something that needs to happen in my lifetime, and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a company who otherwise trumpets about social justice to be a part of it.
So what’s Apple’s response? Close factories? That would disrupt their supply chain for years, potentially collapsing the company. All the cash in the world can’t retool and rebuild a factory overnight.
If anyone cares about this situation “for real,” you’d boycott every single Chinese made product because by owning a Chinese product, YOU are a hypocrite. You can’t expect Apple to stop selling to China if you aren’t willing to stop buying from China.
While you’re at it, stop buying from Mexico because elements of the government facilitate the execution of reporters. Don’t buy from Indonesia because they give the death penalty for minor drug offenses. Find me a country and I can find you something about which to be outraged. Even the “progressive” EU has enacted or attempted to enact laws abridging free speech. You can’t even print the word Nazi in Germany without facing potential criminal charges. As horrible as Nazis and neo-Nazis are, censoring their speech is STILL a violation of human rights. Free speech isn’t just that with which you agree, but it’s the expression of ideas – regardless of how detestable they may be. Germany sees Nazi speech as a threat to public order and perhaps they are correct, but in the same vein, China sees talk of Tiananmen or other such topics as threats to their public order. Should Google, Facebook and Apple pull outmoded Germany? Because it’s the exact same thing. We just happen to agree with censoring Nazi speech while we disagree with censoring “democracy-speech.” Both are censorship applied by a government due to a real or perceived threat to their systems.
Plenty of people here were willing to boycott US states over bathroom laws yet almost every single one of you has something you own made in China – a country with far bigger human rights issues than the hole in which one pees.
While pointing fingers at Apple, one ought to be pointing fingers at oneself as well.
Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship
#393Earlier quoted context omitted.
Don't do business in china! It's that simple. If you can't do business in a local without getting blood on your hands, then don't do business there.
This would harm Chinese people. If you lived in China, would you consider an iPhone or a Chinese phone to be more secure against intrusion?
Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship
#394Earlier quoted context omitted.
> What would "sticking to their guns" involve? Leave the apps in the app store and make the government make the next move. They're fucking Apple, they can do a lot to help finally topple that mess. It's something that needs to happen in my lifetime, and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a company who otherwise trumpets about social justice to be a part of it.
Then China blocks all Apple devices and services. In 5 minutes Apple is demolished in China. So what’s Apple’s response? Close factories? That would disrupt their supply chain for years, potentially collapsing the company. All the cash in the world can’t retool and rebuild a factory overnight. If anyone cares about this situation “for real,” you’d boycott every single Chinese made product because by owning a Chinese…
That’s only one interpretation of human rights.
Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship
#395You cannot do business in China without doing what they tell you. Period. Either you do it or you leave. I work for a big company (you would all know) and we have a large business unit in China, they own 52% of it. They decide what goes in and how customers can use it. We don't get to decide anything without government approval. It's so easy to claim the West shouldn't do what the leadership of China wants in China,…
>"The market is too large to leave." Or stated another way "there's too much money involved to worry about ethics." Yet Google left it and they seem to be doing OK. Apple could well afford to leave it too: https://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/02/apples-cash-hoard-swells-to-...
Apple is overly-dependent upon Chinese manufacturing to have hardware at all. Leaves them beholden to Chinese rules, whereas, if they had manufactured elsewhere, China would have to deal with demand for a needed foreign product.
Now, however, if Apple pulled out, they would leave all that manufacturing expertise behind, and would face a lack of skilled labor elsewhere that they largely caused in the first place.
So, yes, ethics and money clash yet again, as money was designed to make happen. If they didn't pay people, a lot of dirty work wouldn't happen, and a lot of goods would be unavailable as a result.
If you tweet about ethics on a computer, chances are, that computer's hardware makes you complicit.
Yes, me too...
Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship
#396Earlier quoted context omitted.
Google lost nothing. China never had any intention of allowing Google to become dominant in China. That was apparent from day one and comports perfectly with their explicitly stated and demonstrated agenda.
Agreed. When the explicit goal of arbitrarily changed rules are "We'll screw you in favor of a local competitor", why would you choose to play? Either you are successful, and then the rules are changed to disadvantage you further. Or you're unsuccessful because of the rules. Lose / lose.
Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship
#397Earlier quoted context omitted.
Nah, I don't think it is a false dichotomy in this case. It seems unlikely to me in the extreme that China is going to change its policies in response to pressure from some foreign company, even one as large as Apple. More generally, I don't think describing countries & cultures that don't share your particular values as evil is reasonable or useful.
> Nah, I don't think it is a false dichotomy in this case. It seems unlikely to me in the extreme that China is going to change its policies in response to pressure from some foreign company, even one as large as Apple. That is still a false dichotomy. They don't necessarily have to change the policy in order to render it ineffective. Apple is full of smart people. They could think of something if they had to . Other…
Funny that is the _exact_ same argument that politicians have made about secure backdoors in communication software for use by "law enforcement only".
> free speech and privacy
Why is that doing wrong? The causality is based in Western humanistic moral belief. You simply should not force your morals on other cultures and countries.
Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship
#398Earlier quoted context omitted.
Where do you get that from? Creating app with your own dev account can run on your device for more than 10 days... [Update] ok I just checked the limitation of the free dev account, and yes because of certificates it is only valid for 7 days... I was thinking about the regular $$ account.
It is idiotic that you can't compile and install something on a device you own.
Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship
#399Earlier quoted context omitted.
>"The market is too large to leave." Or stated another way "there's too much money involved to worry about ethics." Yet Google left it and they seem to be doing OK. Apple could well afford to leave it too: https://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/02/apples-cash-hoard-swells-to-...
Google has to deal with some manufacturing issues related to their phones and tablets, but does not entirely depend on China for manufacturing. Apple is overly-dependent upon Chinese manufacturing to have hardware at all. Leaves them beholden to Chinese rules, whereas, if they had manufactured elsewhere, China would have to deal with demand for a needed foreign product. Now, however, if Apple pulled out, they would l…
No. It was way before phone manufacturing. China wanted to censor google searches but Google did not approve this so at the end they pulled out their servers from China and hosted it in Singapore.
Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship
#400Earlier quoted context omitted.
These days, ANYONE with a platform, of ANY kind -- cable TV show, massive Twitter following, corporate officer of a Fortune 500, et. al., is a politician.
Some people just want a normal buyer-seller relationship without picking sides.