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Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

nytimes.com

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Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#341

Post by intro-b »

aluhut wrote: post #267
intro-b wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll notice the same usernames and patterns of argumentation every time there is an article with comments remotely criticizing (or even questioning) China.

Some quite interesting "opinions" on that ones comment history.

There are honestly a lot of similar patterns of argumentation, attack, deflection, and amplification that I've noticed across these platforms whenever China is mentioned; as a native Chinese speaker, vast populations of Chinese internet communities and social media services are pretty unreadable to me because you see the same dozen arguments by Chinese netizens unfolding over and over again. His/her assumption that my response is attacking "free speech" is a pretty common response I see, where any attempt at discussing or criticizing Chinese policy is redirected toward some aspect of liberal democratic values, regardless if the original commenter is a "westerner" or whether or not it even fits in the context/scope of the original question.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#342

Post by KMag »

jhedwards wrote: post #295
tziki wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could always do what Google did and abandon China.

This is something I never understood. Google has this "do no evil" value and because staying in China involved compromising this value they left. The result is that the Chinese people are short one search engine as well as _any_ good that Google could have done. This seems ultimately more evil to me. It's good for Google because they can say they upheld their values, and it's good for the Chinese government because n…

> Google has this "do no evil" value

Former Google engineer here. There's a subtle but significant semantic difference between "Don't be evil" (the real motto) and "Do no evil" (a confusion between the Hippocratic oath and the Google motto).

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#343

Post by _yosefk »

dreamlayers wrote: post #335
coldcode wrote: post #138

You cannot do business in China without doing what they tell you. Period. Either you do it or you leave. I work for a big company (you would all know) and we have a large business unit in China, they own 52% of it. They decide what goes in and how customers can use it. We don't get to decide anything without government approval. It's so easy to claim the West shouldn't do what the leadership of China wants in China,…

The market is not "too large to leave". The company is making a choice to stay there because to them profit is more important than ethical considerations. At the same time, the fact that the West generally doesn't care about ethics shows that the West is not necessarily a good model to follow. Maybe China has a better alternative.

A company leaving a large market will be outcompeted by a company which doesn't; for companies, ignoring profits kills them. If it's anyone's job to respond to China's government, it's other governments', as they can take losses more easily but still not easily enough to get by without coordinated action (easier for governments than companies since there are fewer governments and new states don't form as quickly as new companies.)

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#344

Post by aluhut »

intro-b wrote: post #341
aluhut wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some quite interesting "opinions" on that ones comment history.

There are honestly a lot of similar patterns of argumentation, attack, deflection, and amplification that I've noticed across these platforms whenever China is mentioned; as a native Chinese speaker, vast populations of Chinese internet communities and social media services are pretty unreadable to me because you see the same dozen arguments by Chinese netizens unfolding over and over again. His/her assumption that m…

From reading through some of the China threads you came upon, I'm not really sure if you are really familiar with the concept of "free".

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#346

Post by Clubber »

FRex wrote: post #300
Clubber wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You also have to consider China is a sovereign country with their own laws and culture. Who is Apple (or the US for that matter) to dictate what those laws or cultures are? Consider the US has many laws and practices that are considered human rights abuses domestically, much less abroad. Among these is the practice of solitary confinement, police allowed to withhold evidence during interrogation, overreaching sentenc…

There is culture, justified censorship (of extremism for example) and then there is hiding what government did during Tiananmen Square incidents and hiding the transgressions of the CPC and twisting or destroying pre-communist Chinese history, culture and religion. No one is telling Muslim countries to show women hair or telling Singapore or China to unban porn or Europeans to stop enjoying football and enjoy basebal…

>Meanwhile Chinese government wants to use censorship and related powers to cover CPC and governmental abuses and misuses of power, attack its neighbouring countries with propaganda and so on. And people consider this largely okay.

But they are a sovereign nation, it's their country and their laws and their army. I mean if other countries did it to the US because their values differ from our values, like say, getting Trump elected, you wouldn't think it was such a good idea right?

Also, take that down the road and we start souring relations with China? Where does that lead? Two nuclear powers shouldn't be antagonizing each other, and I believe telling China how to run their own country is part of that.

I'm not excusing what China is doing, but honestly, why does the US presume they have to fix it?

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#347

Post by the_common_man »

I find all this outrage about Apple not taking a stand highly amusing.

Practically every single product used in the western world is made in China. Please report back if you can get rid of all those products at a _personal_ level. For a start, looks like I have throw this laptop away. Not going to happen.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#348

Post by analog31 »

laydn wrote: post #336
coldcode wrote: post #138

You cannot do business in China without doing what they tell you. Period. Either you do it or you leave. I work for a big company (you would all know) and we have a large business unit in China, they own 52% of it. They decide what goes in and how customers can use it. We don't get to decide anything without government approval. It's so easy to claim the West shouldn't do what the leadership of China wants in China,…

If they somehow decided to stop doing business in China, would that be grounds for Apple investors to sue Apple?

What would the investors sue Apple for? Now, a majority of investors could always re-direct Apple by voting at a shareholder meeting.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#349

Post by yellowapple »

asdfologist wrote: post #262
paradite wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well if he does that, then I would call him a dictator. But if he does not, I hope you would stop calling him that. Also, there was no precedence in PRC for such thing.

Mao was as close to a dictator as you can get.

Nah, he was a Chairman! Totally different thing!

/s

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#350

Post by analog31 »

coldcode wrote: post #138

You cannot do business in China without doing what they tell you. Period. Either you do it or you leave. I work for a big company (you would all know) and we have a large business unit in China, they own 52% of it. They decide what goes in and how customers can use it. We don't get to decide anything without government approval. It's so easy to claim the West shouldn't do what the leadership of China wants in China,…

In my view something to consider is that the same large companies that are doing the Chinese government's bidding in China, are also free to do the Chinese government's bidding in the US. For instance they can buy political influence, manipulate markets, and so forth.

If they can't serve the interests of two societies at once, they will serve the society that exerts more oversight and control.

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