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Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

nytimes.com

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Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#201

Post by briandear »

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #163
leppr wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been known for years that Apple is actively against freedom of speech when it comes to its marketplace. Why would you expect it to make an exception for China ?

Freedom of speech only applies to the government. Apple can keep whatever they want out of their store.

Why is this downvoted? It’s a factual statement. Freedoms of speech (in the U.S.) is that Congress shall make no law..

A radio station that refuses to play my song or let me talk isn’t violating my freedom of speech.

Facebook censoring “hate speech” is not violating freedom of speech. Hate speech is protected speech under the U.S. constitution. (Before anyone brings up Schenck v. United States, that case ruled that speech that present imminent danger (yelling fire in a crowded theater) was not protected, but hate speech doesn’t generally reach a level of immediate danger.

So if we are to criticize Apple for curating their store, we must criticize Facebook for curating their platform. We must also crisis Google for their curation of advertising content as well. Because unless hate speech says “kill today at 5pm at the local market,” it’s broadly protected under the U.S. constitution. What that means that practically every single company in the U.S. is guilty of “violating free speech” – IF they were the government, but they are not and thus aren’t violating anyone’s right to free speech.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#203

Post by takeda »

adamnemecek wrote: post #37

Hey Timmy, what was all that talk about customer security? https://www.apple.com/customer-letter/ And here I was, almost believing you. You're a coward.

> You're a coward.

What are you talking about? Didn't they remove headphones hack in iPhone 7?

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#204

Post by tziki »

enraged_camel wrote: post #198
xienze wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You cannot do business in China without doing what they tell you. Of course, I get that. But it's always companies like Apple that make so much noise about social justice who don't stick to their guns when China's involved.

I don't get your complaint at all. What would you rather have them do? What would "sticking to their guns" involve? Or would you rather have them not "make so much noise" about social justice?

They could always do what Google did and abandon China.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#205

Post by intopieces »

deathanatos wrote: post #187
coldcode wrote: post #138

You cannot do business in China without doing what they tell you. Period. Either you do it or you leave. I work for a big company (you would all know) and we have a large business unit in China, they own 52% of it. They decide what goes in and how customers can use it. We don't get to decide anything without government approval. It's so easy to claim the West shouldn't do what the leadership of China wants in China,…

> It's so easy to claim the West shouldn't do what the leadership of China wants in China, but in reality the only alternative is to abandon China to those who will do what they are ordered to. That line of "reasoning" makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy, then. (It additionally feels ethically unsound to me; the "if I don't do it, someone else will, therefore it's okay" — no, it's still not okay. And that's what peop…

Is there no chance whatsoever that large American companies could influence the Chinese government by establishing a market presence and then threatening to leave / alter it? This is what they do in the the US. I know that China is usually happy to just start their own Google/Facebook/Amazon/Netflix, so perhaps I'm being naive. As much as I cringe at American companies kowtowing to oppressive governments, it seems like exiting entirely is no strategy at all -- merely contrition in another form.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#206

Post by seanmcdirmid »

tziki wrote: post #204
enraged_camel wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get your complaint at all. What would you rather have them do? What would "sticking to their guns" involve? Or would you rather have them not "make so much noise" about social justice?

They could always do what Google did and abandon China.

Google was aspirational in China when it left: they weren't making much money there...they hoped to in the future.

Apple is not aspirational in China today: they are already making a lot of money there. Leaving China would cause an immediate shock to its stock price as well as a huge cut in actual profits.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#208

Post by dogma1138 »

virtuabhi wrote: post #176
bilbo0s wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose there are the questions of law and fiduciary duties. If it's the law, it's the law. In China, it's the law to remove VPN apps. I suppose it's really not much different than the laws in the US that compel companies to give the government access to my information if they request such access. It's just the law, it's not really Facebook and Google trying to screw me. All that said, I think what most posters are…

"I suppose it's really not much different than the laws in the US that compel companies to give the government access to my information if they request such access." No, in US the directive comes from court and even then the companies can deny the information if it is encrypted (e.g. like Apple did in San Bernardino). I also do not understand the nonsensical argument everyday that if US does small x then it allows ot…

A company cannot legally defy the court in the US.

They can only argue against a specific request it and appeal a ruling or an order.

As for the San Bernadino case it's not correct.

Apple has complied with the court order, they gave the FBI access to the iCloud Account. What they didn't do is to decrypt the phone but they were also not ordered too by the court.

If the court would have ordered them to develop a way to decrypt the device and they've lost all appeals they would've complied with that too.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#209

Post by harrygeez »

Tepix wrote: post #190
fauigerzigerk wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I expect them to do is this: 1) Put up as much of a fight as possible, just as they have done in the US. 2) Allow sideloading of apps.

Regarding 2) Can't you install your own (self-compiled) apps on your own iDevice these days with a free apple developer account? That could work with an open source iOS client that people compile themselves.

You don't even need that. I remember all you need was the source code and Xcode. Of course that's assuming if you're running open-source or your own solutions

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#210

Post by joecool1029 »

tziki wrote: post #204
enraged_camel wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get your complaint at all. What would you rather have them do? What would "sticking to their guns" involve? Or would you rather have them not "make so much noise" about social justice?

They could always do what Google did and abandon China.

Nah, they really can't. Apple's margins depend on Chinese labor to build their hardware.

The two companies are very different.

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