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Thoughts on OpenAI, reinforcement learning, and killer robots

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Re: Thoughts on OpenAI, reinforcement learning, and killer robots

#81
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Accelerated particle colliders are not exactly equivalent to AI. It's not as if I can just build one in my garage. Anyone in the world, regardless of intent, can train a neural network to do what it wants. Extrapolate this decades down the road at the point that AI and its capabilities are much more sophisticated. Do you want to put money on the likelihood that it's all just going to go down smoothly? I don't even kn…

> The idea of replacing human life with AI isn't exactly controversial in the realm of futurism. It isn't in Science Fiction. But this is reality, and in this reality we do not have AGI and we have no idea of how far we are away from it. And even if and when it happens there is absolutely no guarantee that that will lead to the extinction of the human race and/or us ending up as slaves to the machine.

Yep! Just like climate change. It's chilly where I live right now, scientists don't all agree about climate change projections, and even if temperatures actually rise it won't lead to the extinction of the human race, so let's not worry about it.

Edit: /s because I would make me mad if even a few people thought I was being serious.

Re: Thoughts on OpenAI, reinforcement learning, and killer robots

#82
post #28

> It is hard for me to empathize with Musk’s fixation on evil super-intelligent AGI killer robots in a very distant future. I would argue this person has no business working with AI with this sort of myopic thinking. If you think "fake news" is a problem now, just wait until decentralized AI networks are able to tweet, publish articles and affect public discourse in a way that is indistinguishable from human influenc…

I agree. The best way to subjugate a machine and prevent it from breaking out of its bounds is to create an artificial "universe" in which it "exists" with arbitrary restrictions and forces, much like the speed of light, gravity and magnetism and have it work on problems using individual workers in a "lifecycle" in which they have their own motivations and "lives" that they live out until they either solve the proble…

How do you get everyone (every government, every rogue organization, every hacker in their bedroom) working on AI to abide by those rules?

> solve the problem

What "problem"? What if I train a neural network to learn the patterns of individuals and integrate it with military drones to assassinate them because their existence is my "problem"? What are you going to do to stop me?

Re: Thoughts on OpenAI, reinforcement learning, and killer robots

#83
post #15
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling it an "Atari problem" sounds quite disparaging and misses the point. It's like calling a convolutional network doing the ImageNet task a "Doggy-detection" problem. That may be the original development problem, but the final product still helps detect cancer in CT scan images... Same goes for advances in reinforcement learning made on atari games.

Perhaps, but the jury is still very much out. The vast majority of RL applications are game playing. Very few examples of valuable applications to society or the economy. There's also plenty of evidence already that RL isn't really the right way to tackle the credit problem. E.g random search is only 10x slower.

Reinforcement learning has been used in a lot of valuable applications to society/the economy outside of games: control system optimization, robotics, ad targeting, content personalization to name a few. Game playing can often be a great test-bed for RL algorithms that can be applied in other areas.

Re: Thoughts on OpenAI, reinforcement learning, and killer robots

#84
post #24
post #11

Ok, so I consider myself an above-average programmer, capable of building a standard database driven web applications using the latest du-jour techniques. I suck at Math - I mean I _really_ suck at Math. I can visualize algorithms and data structures and have no problem whipping up programs. I have written a lot of code in my lifetime and have helmed a lot of successful projects as my capacity as lead programmer or a…

I'm working on a book for programmers who want to learn math. I can send you the first few chapters if you're interested, but I'm also interested to hear your thoughts about math in general.

I feel like I'm in the same boat: not hugely great at math (I mean I can do algebra and various geometries) but calculus and a lot of AI literature I've read that included algorithms were just very complicated for me to figure out.

So I would also be interested in this book of yours. If you want my feedback I'm also available but I certainly don't expect handouts; just add me to a list to spam when you get your book finished :)

Re: Thoughts on OpenAI, reinforcement learning, and killer robots

#85

Top people including DeepMind's CEO Demis Hassabis and Prof Stuart Russell, a AAAI and AAAS fellow who is a co-author of the AI textbook used at most of top universities, agree that AGI is definitely possible and going to happen. [1] Hassabis also stated in another session that there are probably at least half a dozen mountains to climb before reaching AGI and he would be surprised if it takes more than 20. He also s…

> Top people including DeepMind CEO Demis Hassabis and Prof Stuart Russell, a AAAI and AAAS fellow who is a co-author of the AI textbook most used at top universities, agree that AGI is definitely possible and going to happen.

Even though they are high-profile people, in DL, since people still don't know a lot about it, their confidence means nothing.

When I was in college, my professors/textbook alike, claimed that in order to conquer Go, we probably needs quantum computer or something really sci-fi, maybe in 50 years, even 100 years. Guess what, no one, not even the most optimistic person, would predict it will beat the best human player in 10 years. So, yeah, AGI might happen, maybe in 10 years, maybe in 100 years, but until it happens, no one really knows when is that moment exactly.

Re: Thoughts on OpenAI, reinforcement learning, and killer robots

#86
Maybe I'm missing something here.

First of all, I know a lot of the popular perception of artificial "general intelligence" is overly simplistic - I don't believe in the nerd rapture, and I agree with a lot of what was written in the three articles tweeted by Chollet that have been linked in this thread. And yet, I still don't see how AI is not a plausible existential threat.

Unless you believe that some magical business is going on in the human mind that isn't subject to the normal laws of physics, then I don't see how you can believe that there's anything our brains can do that another machine can't. Even if no cognitive skill can be increased to infinity, we have no good reason to believe that our brains represent the maximum performance of all possible cognitive modes. That's an appeal to the discredited idea that evolution has a "ladder", upon which we stand at the apex as the finished product. Natural selection doesn't optimize for intelligence, and it is not "finished". So, if our brains are machines (albeit highly complex ones that we only partially understand), and if they probably don't represent the maximum potential performance of cognition, then how can we say with any confidence that it is not possible to create another machine with higher cognitive performance across all (or nearly all) modes of cognition? And if that is possible, how can we say with confidence that such machines could pose no existential threat to us? Sure, maybe they won't, or maybe we'll never figure out how to build them. But how is it implausible? How is it something to laugh out of the room?

Furthermore, AI need not surpass us in all modes of cognition in order to be an existential threat. As AI gets better at accomplishing a wide variety of tasks, it becomes an ever more powerful lever for those who own it. The near-term threat from AI is socioeconomic: the replacement of vast numbers of jobs with AI/robotics controlled by a small number of people who receive all the profits of their "labor". It doesn't take much imagination to see how thie could be, at the least, an existential threat to our current society if it is not addressed with adequate forethought.

All in all, I just do not see how AI is not an existential threat worth thinking about and sinking some money into researching how we can make it safer. The tired old argument about the need to spend those resources on more urgent matters doesn't hold water. There are seven billion of us. We can specialize - indeed, it's arguably our greatest strength! We can - and must! - devote resources and talent to a great many urgent issues, such as poverty, conflict, disease, and illiteracy. But I think we would be very unwise not to put a little of our wealth and time into researching how best to mitigate the long-term threats that don't seem urgent yet and might not even come to pass. If we don't, then chances are someday one of them will in fact come to pass and we'll wish we had worked on it sooner.

Re: Thoughts on OpenAI, reinforcement learning, and killer robots

#87
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Accelerated particle colliders are not exactly equivalent to AI. It's not as if I can just build one in my garage. Anyone in the world, regardless of intent, can train a neural network to do what it wants. Extrapolate this decades down the road at the point that AI and its capabilities are much more sophisticated. Do you want to put money on the likelihood that it's all just going to go down smoothly? I don't even kn…

> The idea of replacing human life with AI isn't exactly controversial in the realm of futurism. It isn't in Science Fiction. But this is reality, and in this reality we do not have AGI and we have no idea of how far we are away from it. And even if and when it happens there is absolutely no guarantee that that will lead to the extinction of the human race and/or us ending up as slaves to the machine.

You don't need AGI to do a lot of harm with AI. I'm reminded of a piece of malware that used Instagram comments to encode the instructions it was using to communicate with its control server [1]. This is rudimentary software that any script kiddie could devise with a bit of social engineering. Neural nets / deep learning of today could scale this to the point where it's undetectable.

[1] https://www.engadget.com/2017/06/07/russian-malware-hidden-b...

Re: Thoughts on OpenAI, reinforcement learning, and killer robots

#88
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My issue is that, while of course you're right that one can't know for sure, some people conclude that simply not being able to know justifies whipping up a frenzy and (in all likelihood) wasting part of a billion dollars that could go to, say, more productive research even within AI/ML. Anyone could make a long list of things it's impossible to know for sure that would destroy humnaity. Many such things are vastly m…

Ok, I'll bite. Can you list several things that are vastly more likely to lead to the complete extinction of the human race (I'll assume that's what you meant by "destroy humanity") than malicious AGI?

Climate Change, leading to frequent crop failures, leading to the collapse of most nations and most industrial capacity.

That's what keeps me up at night these days.

Re: Thoughts on OpenAI, reinforcement learning, and killer robots

#89
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In fact, Chollet links a whole series of essays worth reading: Appeal to authority. You're not presenting any substantive rebuttals, just assuming it's not a concern because someone else with credentials said so. It's identical to alleging that I'm only worried because Elon Musk says so. > The frustrating thing is that people with insane amounts of resources and disposable income get swallowed up by these Basilisk-…

> Appeal to authority. ??? I just gave you a ton of arguments you can read through. You want me to copy-paste them here? Ultimately, your "arguments" are refuted with a simple "There's zero reason to be afraid of what you're afraid of".

I would have appreciated at least an abstract or synopsis but okay. When I have time I'll read through these articles.

> Ultimately, your "arguments" are refuted with a simple "There's zero reason to be afraid of what you're afraid of".

Yes, I'm sure it's that black and white.

Re: Thoughts on OpenAI, reinforcement learning, and killer robots

#90
post #11

Ok, so I consider myself an above-average programmer, capable of building a standard database driven web applications using the latest du-jour techniques. I suck at Math - I mean I _really_ suck at Math. I can visualize algorithms and data structures and have no problem whipping up programs. I have written a lot of code in my lifetime and have helmed a lot of successful projects as my capacity as lead programmer or a…

Yes for sure. I am very math-averse (almost failed calculus 1, skated by pre-calc in high school... not my intelligence area) and though I don't have a full time job doing something in AI, I do feel like I can build models that solve real problems (and am doing so in an internship right now).

Probably start with Andrew Ng's Machine Learning course. It has a significant amount of Math in it-- try to understand it, but seriously do not worry about it. Just get the high level concepts, try to get some intuition on machine learning ideas and techniques. You don't need to do the assignments or work too hard on the course (but obviously it's helpful if you do).

Then read these. Don't worry if you're still confused at first. It's fine. Just go through 'em kinda slowly and try to see what's going on. https://iamtrask.github.io/2015/07/12/basic-python-network/ http://karpathy.github.io/neuralnets/

By now if you're still into it, I highly recommend Chris Olah's blog: http://colah.github.io/ It has some pretty complicated ideas in there, but the articles are illustrated and explained very well so you can get more of a feel for Neural Networks while also getting very excited about them.

Then it's probably time to start really building things. I would use Keras (https://keras.io/) at first, because it's very easy to get cool results without understanding everything under the hood. Do a tutorial or two, it's pretty intuitive and if you've done everything above you should understand more or less what's going on. Then try to find a cool dataset to work with that relates to something you're interested in. If you can't find anything you want to work with, then just use a classic dataset (imagenet is fine, even MNIST when you're just practicing) which will probably be less fun but will still let you learn. With whatever dataset you choose, just implement a simple model on your own without a tutorial (of course, if you get stuck referencing a tutorial is totally fine). Then see if you can tweak your model to get better and better scores. Start reading papers, you can find the newest ones on Twitter from ML researchers (Karpathy, Sutskever, Hinton, LeCunn are some names you could start with, there's probably a Twitter list out there somewhere) and then you can look at the references in those papers to keep finding more and more good ones. Implement any ideas in the paper you think are useful. Often Keras will have functionality to let you implement them easily. If it doesn't, then feel free to dip down into Tensorflow if you feel ready!

From there the world's yours. Find cool data to work with, implement papers to get a baseline measurement, and iterate in any way you can think of. It's very fun :)

The one thing is if you want to get state of the art results or do novel research you might need better hardware. AWS/Google Cloud/Floydhub are all options if you're willing to spend a little money, or you can just keep your expectations low ;)

Wow that turned out to be more of a roadmap than I wanted it to, sorry. The reason you don't need great math skills is that a lot of AI research is very intuitive-- Gradient descent can be internalized as a ball rolling down a hill, Momentum in training neural nets is like momentum in the real world, Neural nets are just manipulating data in high dimensional space... it's all stuff you can visualize instead of use mathematic symbols to depict, but since it's so much easier to write with symbols than it is to create a powerful image, symbols are used often.

To be honest I still usually skip over some equations in papers if they look daunting. Most of the time I don't need to understand them. Most of the time, I can read the abstracts, look at some figures, look at the results, and that's everything I need.

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