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Tech is the best industry for women

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Re: Tech is the best industry for women

#181

Post by balls187 »

gitlabuser wrote: post #150
balls187 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Inclusion means accepting people as people, not accepting just the people who look, talk, and share the same beliefs as you. No. There are some beliefs that run counter to our societies ideals. Those beliefs and the people who espouse them should be shunned. Harshly. Sorry you (theoretical Republican) don't think Gay people should be allowed to get married. Keep your backward ass beliefs to yourself.

Well I think you've just proved my point. Not all Republicans are against gay marriage. In fact around 40% support gay marriage: http://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/changing-attitudes-on-gay... And I think using "backward ass beliefs" to describe Republicans seems pretty bigoted to me. It certainly doesn't win over the 40% who do support gay marriage from working with you and it excludes half of the country.

> In fact around 40% support gay marriage:

So the majority republicans support bigotry. And we should accept that?

Re: Tech is the best industry for women

#182

Post by balls187 »

gitlabuser wrote: post #174
thatswrong0 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because tech doesn't tolerate neo-nazis doesn't mean it's not inclusive. Being inclusive, in my opinion, does not mean that one needs to tolerate every belief and every opinion and treat them as equal. IMO inclusivity has more to do with being accepting of people regardless of their unchangeable aspects (skin color, age, orientation, gender, etc.) > It certainly doesn't win over the 40% who do support gay marria…

I'm confused. Are you saying that a company should not hire a Republicans because some Republicans are anti-gay? The OP called Republicans "backward ass belie[vers]" for not supporting gay marriage. I responded by saying that was a bigoted statement and doesn't make sense because 40% of Republicans do support gay marriage. The OP's larger point was basically that we should shun Republicans because of their "backward…

You've created a straw man.

The original point was that inclusion means accepting everyone and their beliefs. Regardless of how bigoted they are.

And that is ridiculous.

No one is saying don't hire republicans because they are anti-gay, anti-womens rights, anti-immigrant, anti-abortion, anti-muslim.

What we are saying is that if you have an bigoted opinion (such as homophobia), keep it to yourself, or you will be shunned (in tech).

You want limited government, guns in the classroom, no government medical care, trickle-down economics, fine, we can debate those policies all day long and never agree.

But sorry, no, you can't get to be a bigot and expect us to accept it.

Re: Tech is the best industry for women

#183

Post by mratzloff »

beaner wrote: post #123
mratzloff wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I'm definitely going to see this thread on n-gate. "One hackernews points out that the problem in tech isn't endemic sexism, but that male engineers are just so much better than all other men."

If you read my comment as saying men in tech are superior, you got the wrong message. Edit: By that, I mean the traits I pointed out above are debatable in terms of desirability. Things like self-sacrificial and feebleness definitely seem like flaws to me at least. I am somewhat surprised that you interpreted these descriptors as superior.

I was characterizing it in the typical way n-gate posts are written and as a means of satirizing the entire comment thread.

But I'll just add that you selected a couple traits for your examples out of a list of largely positive traits (either universally regarded as positive or lionized in tech almost as badges of relateable honor: introverted, wallflower, etc.).

The overall message as I read it was "men in tech are more introspective and empathetic."

Re: Tech is the best industry for women

#184

Post by balls187 »

gitlabuser wrote: post #151
Sk1pp wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you just helped further the posters first statement.

lol yes, it's comments like this which are a perfect example of why tech is not an inclusive community.

Brenden Eich felt compelled to step down as Mozilla CEO because he supported a ban on Gay marriage and parts of the tech community criticized him for it (including OkCupid which ran a special banner for Firefox users).

If that means Tech is not inclusive--then you're right.

Re: Tech is the best industry for women

#185

Post by beaner »

mratzloff wrote: post #183
beaner wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read my comment as saying men in tech are superior, you got the wrong message. Edit: By that, I mean the traits I pointed out above are debatable in terms of desirability. Things like self-sacrificial and feebleness definitely seem like flaws to me at least. I am somewhat surprised that you interpreted these descriptors as superior.

I was characterizing it in the typical way n-gate posts are written and as a means of satirizing the entire comment thread. But I'll just add that you selected a couple traits for your examples out of a list of largely positive traits (either universally regarded as positive or lionized in tech almost as badges of relateable honor: introverted, wallflower, etc.). The overall message as I read it was "men in tech are…

Some are positive, some are negative. Introvert, liberal, wallflower, and humble (or fake humble) definitely don't all seem like they're necessarily positives to me, either. Even some of the ones that are positive can lead to negative consequences for the men who have them, as a group. Introspection and empathy are generally considered good things, but also can lead to the result described in my comment. I'm not really trying to make a judgment about who are better or worse men - I think you have to be digging for that a little bit, if that's what you're reading. It's more just an observation that these traits lead to that result.

I don't know what n-gate is.

Re: Tech is the best industry for women

#186

Post by tptacek »

civilian wrote: post #113
gitlabuser wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that any of these examples show that Bay Area tech is a meritocracy or inclusive. The truth is the tech community has a culture and almost all the things you mentioned are almost stereotypical parts of it. These all fit within the tech culture: * Going to burning man * Going to SXSW * Working with the LGBT community * Tattoos / Dyed hair * Pole dancing * Wearing Stan Smiths * Being obsessed with high en…

:[ I'm a gun-shooting libertarian. Don't assume my Tribe. You're right, the "tech tribe" does have improvements to make in inclusivity, but at least it's a home for some people who would otherwise be outcasts in socially conservative businesses. As for a few things: - I think we're just as accepting of blacks, our high school education system has just utterly failed them so much that we don't have a good pipeline for…

What does it even mean to respond to the criticism of how the tech industry treats black people to say "the high school system is failing them"? Aren't you describing, and excusing in yourself, the essence of prejudice? Individual black people who are being mistreated in our industry are not stand-ins for whatever phenomenon of all black life in America we happen to believe in.

Re: Tech is the best industry for women

#187

Post by sqeaky »

sqeaky wrote: post #149
gitlabuser wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that tech has been a haven for some who would be outcasts in other areas. Specifically the LGBT community. To address your other points: * I don't buy the pipeline argument. I've seen huge bias is how the tech community treats blacks. For example, I've seen a few black colleagues try to transfer into software engineering and get huge amounts of push back. Ironically I did the same thing (transfer from product…

Some homelessness is due to untreated mental illness. Some homeless is due to other factors I am largely ignoring that, intentionally. Tech is all about mental aptitude. Some mental health issues interfere with the required skills and some do not. Someone with ADD, bipolar or impostor syndrome is not strongly adversely affected, while someone with dissociative schizophrenia and cannot make decisions that keep shelter…

Downvoted without rebuttal. :(

If I am wrong, then please tell me. I even asked for more information on something I was unsure of.

Re: Tech is the best industry for women

#188

Post by sctb »

hasenj wrote: post #169
beaner wrote: post #83

Pieces like this sometimes make me wonder if sexism is not actually more rampant in tech, men in tech are just more open to self-criticism and accepting that something is wrong with themselves and their industry. All the things you hear about in tech, you hear about elsewhere. But the men in them don't seem to compete with each other over who can be the most self deprecating and sympathetic with those calling them ou…

> Pieces like this sometimes make me wonder if sexism is not actually more rampant in tech I've never seen a shred of evidence that there's any sexism in tech. Most (if not all) articles claiming there is are usually pieces written by SJW types who go out of their way to look for victims and oppressors because that's what they've been trained to do.

Please don't post uncivilly by dismissing the experience of others and making unsubstantive generalizations like this again.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Tech is the best industry for women

#189

Post by thatswrong0 »

gitlabuser wrote: post #174
thatswrong0 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because tech doesn't tolerate neo-nazis doesn't mean it's not inclusive. Being inclusive, in my opinion, does not mean that one needs to tolerate every belief and every opinion and treat them as equal. IMO inclusivity has more to do with being accepting of people regardless of their unchangeable aspects (skin color, age, orientation, gender, etc.) > It certainly doesn't win over the 40% who do support gay marria…

I'm confused. Are you saying that a company should not hire a Republicans because some Republicans are anti-gay? The OP called Republicans "backward ass belie[vers]" for not supporting gay marriage. I responded by saying that was a bigoted statement and doesn't make sense because 40% of Republicans do support gay marriage. The OP's larger point was basically that we should shun Republicans because of their "backward…

> Or to go further, would you think its fine for the tech community to blacklist people who voted for Trump?

It depends. If you wear a MAGA hat to work at this point, I wouldn't mind if you were fired for it. Keep that bigoted shit to yourself. If you wear that hat at this point, you're, in my mind, actively discriminating against certain parts of our population and deserve 0 respect from peers. I would want you out of my workplace. If you voted for him and keep to yourself, whatever. The important part is that all of my coworkers who traditionally have dealt with such discrimination don't have to feel it from you.

The other response to you basically the rest covered my point.

> That people can make such blanket statements about an entire political party, esp the party of Abraham Lincoln.

lol. What does the Republican party of today have in common with the republican party of Abe Lincoln? Seriously, I'd love to hear it. The Republican party of today is so far from what it was even 40 years ago, let alone 150.

> Not by the their political affiliation, not by their race, not by their sexuality, gender, etc.

If you were a member of the neo-nazi party, I would not want you in my workplace either. No political affiliation deserves respect merely because of its existence. If you align yourself with bigots, even if you aren't necessarily one yourself, be prepared to be treated as one.

I say this as someone who is independent; I think both parties suck. But if you're going to be a Republican who thinks that gays shouldn't get married, get the fuck out of my workplace. I don't want you here, and I'd guess most of my coworkers wouldn't want you here either.

Re: Tech is the best industry for women

#190

Post by hasenj »

sctb wrote: post #188
hasenj wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pieces like this sometimes make me wonder if sexism is not actually more rampant in tech I've never seen a shred of evidence that there's any sexism in tech. Most (if not all) articles claiming there is are usually pieces written by SJW types who go out of their way to look for victims and oppressors because that's what they've been trained to do.

Please don't post uncivilly by dismissing the experience of others and making unsubstantive generalizations like this again. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Please directly quote the specific rule/guideline you think I violated. There's no rule about "dismissing the experience of others".
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