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Tech is the best industry for women

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Re: Tech is the best industry for women

#171

Post by hasenj »

anotherbrownguy wrote: post #90

When it comes to some of these jobs, there seems to be a trope that the job market should be about "equal representation" which is complete nonsense but it is great for women because big companies want to present themselves as "respecting equality" and hence women are more likely to be hired in those positions than equally qualified men. So, yes, it is definitely very lucrative for women to pursue a career in tech in…

The far left does not understand the difference between equality of opportunity and equality of outcome.

I come from a middle eastern background and my first language is Arabic. Through out my career, I've never encountered any working programmer who is from my background or speaks my language. But so what? I fail to see why this would be a problem for anyone.

Re: Tech is the best industry for women

#172

Post by thatswrong0 »

gitlabuser wrote: post #150
balls187 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Inclusion means accepting people as people, not accepting just the people who look, talk, and share the same beliefs as you. No. There are some beliefs that run counter to our societies ideals. Those beliefs and the people who espouse them should be shunned. Harshly. Sorry you (theoretical Republican) don't think Gay people should be allowed to get married. Keep your backward ass beliefs to yourself.

Well I think you've just proved my point. Not all Republicans are against gay marriage. In fact around 40% support gay marriage: http://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/changing-attitudes-on-gay... And I think using "backward ass beliefs" to describe Republicans seems pretty bigoted to me. It certainly doesn't win over the 40% who do support gay marriage from working with you and it excludes half of the country.

Just because tech doesn't tolerate neo-nazis doesn't mean it's not inclusive. Being inclusive, in my opinion, does not mean that one needs to tolerate every belief and every opinion and treat them as equal. IMO inclusivity has more to do with being accepting of people regardless of their unchangeable aspects (skin color, age, orientation, gender, etc.)

> It certainly doesn't win over the 40% who do support gay marriage from working with you and it excludes half of the country.

We're not trying to convince bigoted people to not be bigoted here. We're trying to cultivate a work place that doesn't discriminate against most people, and that _probably_ means that we can't tolerate certain bigoted beliefs. In my mind, not hiring someone who doesn't like gay people is quite similar to not hiring a jerk.

Re: Tech is the best industry for women

#173

Post by thatswrong0 »

stale2002 wrote: post #88
dublinclontarf wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the article highlights one of the good points about tech. The meritocracy. It's not perfect but it's there.

The problem with "meritocracy" culture is that it often values only 1 form of meritocracy and that is direct, technical, individual contributions. IE, it values the brilliant asshole. Sure, the brilliant asshole is very smart, and makes good individual contributions. But thats not really what matters. What matters is the TOTAL contributions of the entire team. And the brilliant asshole, often brings a lot of INDIRECT…

> The problem with "meritocracy" culture is that it often values only 1 form of meritocracy and that is direct, technical, individual contributions.

I haven't witnessed this, but maybe I've just gotten lucky with the companies I've worked at. The companies I've worked at seemed to value both your individual contributions as well as your ability to make others more productive.. being a toxic asshole to your coworkers would absolutely not fly, even if you were hyperproductive. There were certainly some people who were highly valued that were highly productive that didn't seem to particularly _care_ about making other people's lives easier, but they also weren't toxic - they mostly kept to themselves.

Re: Tech is the best industry for women

#174

Post by gitlabuser »

thatswrong0 wrote: post #172
gitlabuser wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I think you've just proved my point. Not all Republicans are against gay marriage. In fact around 40% support gay marriage: http://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/changing-attitudes-on-gay... And I think using "backward ass beliefs" to describe Republicans seems pretty bigoted to me. It certainly doesn't win over the 40% who do support gay marriage from working with you and it excludes half of the country.

Just because tech doesn't tolerate neo-nazis doesn't mean it's not inclusive. Being inclusive, in my opinion, does not mean that one needs to tolerate every belief and every opinion and treat them as equal. IMO inclusivity has more to do with being accepting of people regardless of their unchangeable aspects (skin color, age, orientation, gender, etc.) > It certainly doesn't win over the 40% who do support gay marria…

I'm confused. Are you saying that a company should not hire a Republicans because some Republicans are anti-gay?

The OP called Republicans "backward ass belie[vers]" for not supporting gay marriage. I responded by saying that was a bigoted statement and doesn't make sense because 40% of Republicans do support gay marriage. The OP's larger point was basically that we should shun Republicans because of their "backward ass beliefs". I never mentioned that we should include anti gay workers, I didn't even mention gays. I just said we should be inclusive of Republicans. Are you agreeing with the OP's original assertion that we should shun Republicans?

Let me give another example. I am a male and I am not attracted to overweight / obese females. So I actively discriminate against overweight people in my dating life. It does not affect how I treat overweight people in any other aspect of my life, including my workplace. If I had a public dating profile which says I preferred petite females would that be grounds to not hire me? Or to give another equivalent scenario, if I was a female who discriminated against short males in dating would that be grounds to not hire me? Or to go further, would you think its fine for the tech community to blacklist people who voted for Trump?

There's something deeply troubling to me about going down that rabbit hole. That people can make such blanket statements about an entire political party, esp the party of Abraham Lincoln.

To me as a Bengali, it's no different from my parents stating "Well Pakistanis want us dead. They conducted a genocide of us 50 years ago and they feel no different. Don't cultivate relationships with them"

NO. You don't do that. You judge individuals by the individual. Not by the their political affiliation, not by their race, not by their sexuality, gender, etc.

You don't say "let's not hire this person because they are Republican and Republicans hate gays". You evaluate the individual and if you think the individual would not create a good environment for your gay workers you don't hire them. But you do that regardless of their party. I know plenty of Democrats who are bigoted, racist, or homophobic.

Seriously, this feels like a liberal version of McCarthyism.

Re: Tech is the best industry for women

#175

Post by neilparikh »

beaner wrote: post #83

Pieces like this sometimes make me wonder if sexism is not actually more rampant in tech, men in tech are just more open to self-criticism and accepting that something is wrong with themselves and their industry. All the things you hear about in tech, you hear about elsewhere. But the men in them don't seem to compete with each other over who can be the most self deprecating and sympathetic with those calling them ou…

I think what you're describing is scrupulosity.

Scott Aaronson had a really nice comment about this on his blog: http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2091#comment-326664

Re: Tech is the best industry for women

#176

Post by yellowapple »

owebmaster wrote: post #137
xxSparkleSxx wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which industries do you think are MORE meritocratic than tech? Tech's not perfect, but I think they do it better than most (all?).

Sports? Music?

I'm not really sure if music is all that meritocratic. In some circles, sure, but the mainstream seems to be dominated by pretty faces propped up by major labels.

This does seem to be changing for the better thanks to the Internet, but there's still a very long way to go.

Re: Tech is the best industry for women

#177

Post by yellowapple »

malandrew wrote: post #103
civilian wrote: post #40

I think tech represents a good implementation of a meritocracy. You are welcomed to be weird and yourself, as long as you get your work done. Think about your coworkers-- you've got some weird ones. Dyed hair? Check. Burlesque dancing? Check. Gender non-conforming? Check. Goes to Burning Man? Check, check, self-check. Any of these things could get you fired from teaching kindergarten. Let's keep tech inclusive and ac…

Tech has generally been one of the most inclusive places for people on the aspie/autistic side of the spectrum, but in recent years, it's become far more hostile. The reason for this is tact filters. http://www.mit.edu/~jcb/tact.html http://ozarque.livejournal.com/176349.html

Tangential note about the second link: in my experience (having done my share of work on a cattle ranch when I was growing up), cows are very easy to move. Just look big. Put your arms out. Yell "heeeaugh!" at them. They'll spook and start moving away.

This might differ based on the herd, though. My uncle's cattle are beef cattle, so not much in terms of friendly human interaction. Dairy cattle might have less fear of humans.

Re: Tech is the best industry for women

#178

Post by threatofrain »

gitlabuser wrote: post #99
civilian wrote: post #40

I think tech represents a good implementation of a meritocracy. You are welcomed to be weird and yourself, as long as you get your work done. Think about your coworkers-- you've got some weird ones. Dyed hair? Check. Burlesque dancing? Check. Gender non-conforming? Check. Goes to Burning Man? Check, check, self-check. Any of these things could get you fired from teaching kindergarten. Let's keep tech inclusive and ac…

I don't think that any of these examples show that Bay Area tech is a meritocracy or inclusive. The truth is the tech community has a culture and almost all the things you mentioned are almost stereotypical parts of it. These all fit within the tech culture: * Going to burning man * Going to SXSW * Working with the LGBT community * Tattoos / Dyed hair * Pole dancing * Wearing Stan Smiths * Being obsessed with high en…

I would contend that whether a group is more or less inclusive does not solely depend on whether they have failed to include the homeless, black people, old people, religious people, etc.

It depends on whether the parameters of your group accepts more people, and another measure might look at whether or not your group accepts more kinds of people, or some weighted balance.

Also, if we were to add in some choice examples, I'd look at how the teaching profession treats LGBT people. Such people are under risk of being considered pedophiles. It's probably a career-killer, and any administration that backs that teacher would need strength to resist parents.

Re: Tech is the best industry for women

#179

Post by owebmaster »

yellowapple wrote: post #176
owebmaster wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sports? Music?

I'm not really sure if music is all that meritocratic. In some circles, sure, but the mainstream seems to be dominated by pretty faces propped up by major labels. This does seem to be changing for the better thanks to the Internet, but there's still a very long way to go.

> I'm not really sure if music is all that meritocratic.

One thing for sure is that no industry in the world is all that meritocratic. But Music and Sports (even with the mainstream whitewash) for sure has a better social and racial distribution than any other industry I can think of.

Re: Tech is the best industry for women

#180

Post by nickbauman »

leshow wrote: post #62
nickbauman wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Hollywood, men at certain levels throw tantrums and break things when something isn't to their liking. It's changing a little and the film industry is ready for a comeuppance. But in IT and many other industries this kind of behavior would get you flat-out escorted out of the building. What's considered OK on a film set is not tolerated in most offices.

> In Hollywood, men at certain levels throw tantrums and break things when something isn't to their liking. How is that a gender specific thing?

Uh, it's men doing it. Male directors. Male cinematographers. Male Unit Production Managers.
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