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BTC-e and its founder charged in 21-count indictment over hack of Mt. Gox

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Re: BTC-e and its founder charged in 21-count indictment over hack of Mt. Gox

#241
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Countries charge foreign nationals of crimes all the time. The fact that this is surprising to many people in these comments is horrifying.

That's not confusing, what's confusing is his lack of direct association with the USA. There are a handful of other countries that would appear to be more responsibility for his actions.

Ah, but the fact that there are a handful of other countries doesn't change anything - he can be prosecuted in all and each of these countries for various parts of that scheme.

USA prosecuting him doesn't mean that other countries can't, it simply means that USA was a bit quicker to do so. For example, it's technically possible that he's acquitted in USA for the AML part, but immediately after that gets extradited to Japan for some charges regarding the MtGox hack.

Re: BTC-e and its founder charged in 21-count indictment over hack of Mt. Gox

#242
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can cover >25% of the US population in just the top 3 states (CA, TX, NY). The system isn't that strange, almost every business in the US is primarily regulated by the states. What's strange is that most Americans don't realize this.

what even more strange is that whole world should follow quirky us system rules. put usa citizens in jail for not following usa rules, not foreign companies.

You don't have to follow USA rules unless you do business within USA.

The key point is that doing fully digital business online (as opposed to selling physical goods online to people within your country) doesn't mean that no jurisdiction applies, it means that all of them do - if you do international trade with USA, then you have to be mindful of USA laws.

Re: BTC-e and its founder charged in 21-count indictment over hack of Mt. Gox

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, but I think you assume a much greater level of enforcement than actually exists. Most tax evasion enforcement is on relatively small subset of taxpayers and is for fairly easy-to-detect fudges. There has been a lot of work between the IRS and banks to set up heuristics and flag suspicious activity, but that all ends up pretty worthless with an anonymous cryptocurrency.

You're assuming that in a world with only anonymous cryptocurrency there won't be banks and credit cards and the like. Keeping cryptocurrency saved on your personal hard drive with backups or something is equivalent to keeping your money under your mattress today. Banks provide you with interest on your savings and security. I suspect in a world with only cryptocurrency instead of fiat, trying to make a direct peer-t…

There's no need to suspect - looking at the regulations, it seems that the standard AML/KYC laws everywhere in the first world already require anyone selling anything large with an untraceable payment instrument (i.e. anything other than through a financial institution; which commonly means cash, but not exclusively so, bags of diamonds or Monero count as well) is required to report the transaction and the identity of the customer.

It doesn't mean that everyone reports that, quite the contrary, but all legitimate businesses do and will.

Re: BTC-e and its founder charged in 21-count indictment over hack of Mt. Gox

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exchanging BTC for cash, gold or diamonds is much more difficult ( and there's a higher perceived danger ). How would you go about trading your BTC for diamonds? Btc-to-diamonds.website ? If it's online, it's tracked by 5 eyes Tor? 5-eyes is even more interested Craigslist? Great, go meet a stranger in a parking lot and gamble that you don't get robbed. The comment is general but it's right. As it & other posters in…

If you are in the underworld you know people who you can do dealings with. Effectively a dark pool. Dark in both senses of the word.

The average BTC holder is not, so it's not a good option.

Re: BTC-e and its founder charged in 21-count indictment over hack of Mt. Gox

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me it's now Monero or nothing.

I would treat Monero & Zcash as the beta software it is. I wouldn't rely on it for anything for years.

Yeah new research is coming out frequently enough that reveals new and previously unknown weaknesses and patterns in the mixing strategies. The teams do a good job of responding quickly to address new issues, but previous trades that leaked information can't be fixed. The information is out there forever.

If you are trying to stay out of jail, I'd consider Monero a good mid-term strategy. Anything else (including Zcash) of probably not even that great in the short term. (So few people use the anonymous part of Zcash that you have a terrible anonymity set). Dash, pivx , etcetera are just plain insecure.

Re: BTC-e and its founder charged in 21-count indictment over hack of Mt. Gox

#246
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at the actual charges in the indictment. All the BTC-e stuff is not what he's charged with. He's charged with transferring stolen Mt Gox Bitcoins to Tradehill, a San Francisco based exchange (now defunct). That's the US connection that will seal his extradition. They also allege that BTC-e is (at least partially) hosted in the US and does business with many US companies, which is likely true. But that's not what…

As an actual cryptographer who has looked into it, I wouldn't put too much faith in Monero's fungibiliry. The story is not as good as the PR would have you believe, and is really not all that different from Bitcoin with CoinJoin.

While I won't say that Monero offers heat privacy, it's clearly much better than CoinJoin or JoinMarket on bitcoin. For one thing they have thousands of users and transactions. The number of people participating in mixing gives you a big shield to hide behind.

For another, they hide balances, and they do actively pay attention to the information leaks, and they employ strategies to fight that. When the drug markets were busted, dash and pivx users were discovered, but Monero users were kept hidden.

It's pretty clear to me that they are at least moderately successful where nobody else really is yet. New strategies may come out tomorrow to unmask everyone, I certainly wouldn't bet my own life on Monero's safety, but they overall are outperforming everyone else in a practical sense.

Re: BTC-e and its founder charged in 21-count indictment over hack of Mt. Gox

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. The crime in question is the human trafficking. Pursue and prosecute that . If you go by the economic definitions of money, which generally include uniformity and fungibility, money laundering is really a whinge from law enforcement that police work is difficult, and can't they please go after someone who may be less dangerous and less guilty, but is much easier to catch? You can't reasonably expect people to in…

You seem to be conflating multiple issues here. As far as I know, nobody considers it money laundering to unwittingly accept money from illegal activities as payment. But I don't buy the idea that if I knowingly set out to conceal the source of ill-gotten funds then I've done nothing wrong. I've colluded with criminals to abet their crime in that scenario.

Know-your-customer laws do just that. Go to a bank with $20000 in cash and no ID, and try to open an anonymous account with it. Take that $20k to a car dealership, and try to buy a car off the lot with it. As you walk away, cops stop you and take your cash via forfeiture. The prevailing assumption seems to be that anyone carrying that much cash is a criminal. The assumption should be that cash is cash, is cash, is cash. The whole point of having it is to dispense with ledgers and accounting books in everyday commerce. They burned the tally sticks and stocks to make us use paper money, and now they want the account history back.

Money with a history is not uniform and fungible.

If you make a dollar that came from a criminal worth less than a dollar that came from a saint, you are attacking one of the foundation concepts of money.

For the sake of argument, let's say I get $1 from my crime boss for intimidating a witness. I put it in my pocket. Then I find $1 lying on the street. I put that in my pocket. Then I help an old lady put groceries in her car, and she tips me $1. I also put that in my pocket. Then I go to the convenience store and buy a pack of gum. I reach into my pocket and pull out $1. What is the source of that money?

My pocket. Most people simply don't care where that dollar came from before that. Most people have no conceivable means of knowing where it came from before that. And if they knew, they wouldn't have the recordkeeping capacity to distinguish which dollar came from which activity. They only really care that I pay for the gum instead of shoplifting or strong-arming the clerk.

But ever since the invention of forensic accounting as a crime-fighting/investigative-reporting tool, it would seem that following the money often remains a valid tactic even when other methods of investigation fail. This is because financial businesses must keep meticulous records, as a consequence of being such juicy targets for fraudsters. So all the cop has to do is pop down to the bank records office with a warrant.

So as a society, we have a choice between having money that is more suitable for open trade, and money that is more suitable for combating crimes. My personal preference is for the former. Those who would like for money laundering to be a crime in and of itself--rather than an inchoate offense dependent on other crimes--prefer the latter.

The root question is whether you believe that criminals should be allowed to participate in white-market commerce, like normal people. I do. With that opinion, their blood lucre spends the same there as all the more righteous bills. They might be discouraged from committing crimes if they are less able to profit from them, but I don't think that's the case. If you make the cost of whitewashing black market money 25% of its face value, the criminal just does more crime, or charges more for their black market stuff. It's just another cost of doing [black market] business.

If you're trying to make crime unprofitable, you really need to seize assets and revenue streams only after a conviction, and in proportion to the magnitude of the crime. Civil forfeitures with inanimate defendants and prosecuting inchoate offenses in the absence of primary offenses is just slapping justice across her blindfolded face.

Re: BTC-e and its founder charged in 21-count indictment over hack of Mt. Gox

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because insulting someone and stealing millions of dollars are equal somehow?

Whose money did BTC-e steal?

I suppose you're not very familiar with BTC-e. It had a reputation of taking funds from users -- there was nothing effectively stopping them (until now) from locking users out of their accounts randomly, or disappearing user's funds.

Re: BTC-e and its founder charged in 21-count indictment over hack of Mt. Gox

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would the humanitarian cost be less if NATO hadn't intervened? There was already a civil war in progress in Libya, after all. NATO didn't and hasn't gotten involved in Syria (with the exception of a limited air strike this year in response to the Syrian government's use of chemical weapons on civilians, a strike of limited strategic value) and the situation there is one of the worst humanitarian crises today. I think…

> Would the humanitarian cost be less if NATO hadn't intervened? Yes, that is what I think.

I agree. Problem is, 100k dead in a week looks a lot worse on TV than 10M dead over five years.

Re: BTC-e and its founder charged in 21-count indictment over hack of Mt. Gox

#250
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whose money did BTC-e steal?

I suppose you're not very familiar with BTC-e. It had a reputation of taking funds from users -- there was nothing effectively stopping them (until now) from locking users out of their accounts randomly, or disappearing user's funds.

>I suppose you're not very familiar with BTC-e.

There's probably 5 or less people more familiar with BTC-e than I am.

>It had a reputation of taking funds from users

Compared to the other big exchanges they've mostly had a reputation of not doing that.

Essentially all the people I can find complaining about suspended BTC-e accounts got shut down due to inconsistencies in their incoming wires.

I'm looking at BTC-e user database right now, only 0.2857% of the users are banned. Much fewer than you'd see at any other exchange, but I suppose that's not a very meaningful metric given the ease of registrations.

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