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Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

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Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#381

Post by Aaargh20318 »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #352
Aaargh20318 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can make a a native app, which will always be better than a webapp. As an iOS user, I have no intention of ever using webapps (including things like Cordova apps). If you can’t be bothered to make a iOS-native app with iOS native look, feel and features then just don’t bother.

A native app will never have instant install, or update without download. A native app will never be available on all platforms. Sometimes a native app is better, sometimes it is worse. It's certainly better if all you care about is fancy animations.

> A native app will never have instant install, or update without download.

So ? Updates happen automatically anyway.

> A native app will never be available on all platforms.

I don’t need it on all platforms, I only use iOS.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#382

Post by gregblass »

christiangenco wrote: post #65

I think a lot of commenters here are missing the point and getting distracted by push notifications (who wants a website spamming them with notifications?) and loading screens (hardly a feature). Apple supporting PWA (Progressive Web Apps) is hugely important because it enables a future where web apps can natively support browser, Mac/Windows/Linux desktop, and mobile iPhone/Android/Windows native mobile with a singl…

Thank you Christian. This is what I was trying to say. I think I could have better job at making my point more clearly. But you got it.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#383

Post by gsich »

marcosdumay wrote: post #312
falcolas wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> iOS app written by someone like OP That's a business choice that they made, and will suffer for. If a developer and business choose to half-ass the native iOS application, there's no reason to believe it would behave any better on iOS when written as a webapp. > the tools they need to write the best product they can The best product that can be made will never be made with cross-platform tooling. It will always be…

> My proof for this? Java programs. TCL programs. Electron programs. Do you feel the same way with QT? There's a reason all of those you cited failed. That reason is not "a cross platform environment can not be good".

Would be interested in the reason. Haven't seen a good Electron program yet. Slack is just painfully slow.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#384

Post by gregblass »

scarface74 wrote: post #173
christiangenco wrote: post #65

I think a lot of commenters here are missing the point and getting distracted by push notifications (who wants a website spamming them with notifications?) and loading screens (hardly a feature). Apple supporting PWA (Progressive Web Apps) is hugely important because it enables a future where web apps can natively support browser, Mac/Windows/Linux desktop, and mobile iPhone/Android/Windows native mobile with a singl…

Apple supporting PWA (Progressive Web Apps) is hugely important because it enables a future where web apps can natively support browser, Mac/Windows/Linux desktop, and mobile iPhone/Android/Windows native mobile with a single codebase of open technologies. Why after over 30 years of experiencing cross platform "write once run anywhere* technologies do developers still think that's the best user experience? Yes it mak…

I'm not trying to argue that it is the BEST user experience. I'm trying to say that it is hurting small dev shops and startups because they are being forced to learn a completely new tech stack in order to play ball. I could have spent that time implementing new features that users would actually use and in turn improve their business, or in this case, reach and help more people with valuable medical advice.

In the end, Apple got what they wanted. I needed a feature that PWA's can give me - but Apple hasn't added support for them in mobile safari, so I paid the $100 to get access to the app store, and was forced to learn a completely different language.

Yes, the end product has an arguably better and 'native-like' experience, but it took me longer to do and it is lacking some of the features that I could have rolled out if I was able to use PWA's. And it would have worked on Android out of the box as well.

I don't regret learning React Native. It was actually really, really fun. The community is great, and being able to write native apps now feels really good.

But its the principal of the matter. Holding back innovation for your company's own selfish reasons is a shitty thing to do.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#385

Post by SirZimzim »

criddell wrote: post #241
meesterdude wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a developer, I would love push notifications in safari. The only alternative is a native app, which is much more work.

As a user, I think crappy or unethical web developers would ruin it for everybody. At least with native apps, there's a somewhat consistent way for me to manage notifications (and I have 95% of them turned off).

So why don't you support the OP then? If Apple got behind PWA development you would see a similar menu for websites.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#386

Post by euyyn »

threeseed wrote: post #379
euyyn wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not making sense to me. u/jondubois dislikes the walled garden, which is the inability to run apps that don't go through Apple's app store (with the corresponding review and fees). You respond to those two lines by saying that the walled garden prevents fragmentation. It does not. * If you were unable to run apps other than via the Google Play Store in Android phones, the OS versions would still be fragmented.…

The walled garden absolutely prevents fragmentation. Apple has on multiple occasions over the years removed apps from the stores that weren't updated to use the latest iOS SDK. This meant that since all apps are targeting the latest iOS there is little impediment to moving the entire platform forward.

Ah OK, I see that point now. But Android's fragmentation isn't due to the users being unwilling to update, to keeps their apps working. It's because it used to cost a lot to OEMs and carriers to port their drivers etc to the new versions.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#387

Post by marcosdumay »

gsich wrote: post #383
marcosdumay wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My proof for this? Java programs. TCL programs. Electron programs. Do you feel the same way with QT? There's a reason all of those you cited failed. That reason is not "a cross platform environment can not be good".

Would be interested in the reason. Haven't seen a good Electron program yet. Slack is just painfully slow.

I don't know the reason. I just know enough to discard the "portable applications must be bad" hypothesis.

If I'd have to guess, I'd say that all of your examples sucked in different ways and it is not a general trend.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#388

Post by euyyn »

scaryclam wrote: post #366
euyyn wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A lot of the time That was the case in the 90s, and hasn't been the case since. "Some times, that are so rare that people point to it and comment on it on forums", yes.

It's a day to day occurrence, within Web development teams who have different preferences in browser. I've witnessed it in multi companies over the last decade. If you've not noticed it, then it's highly likely you're not testing outside of a single browser. The fact that you think this is a 90s issue shows that you're either extremely junior and arrogant, or totally out of touch with modern Web development. Either t…

If you're talking of the need to use polyfills, and test in multiple versions of multiple browsers before pushing to production, I think it's incomparable to having to write multiple native apps.

If you're talking about fonts rendering differently, or some line being some pixels further to the right, same thing; incomparable.

If you're talking about corporate web apps written for IE, those aren't accessible from a phone anyway, so the distinction between native and web app is meaningless for them.

If, instead, you're talking of websites that really don't work on a modern browser, and you stumble on them day to day, you just have an experience that's different from most other people. The easiest way to tell that what I'm telling you isn't just my individual experience is to compare what you see and read today from what used to be the case in the days of IE domination.

Acting like a dick that thinks people that disagree with you are in a sorry little bubble of ignorance is just a character flaw; nothing to do with this.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#389

Post by scarface74 »

gregblass wrote: post #384
scarface74 wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple supporting PWA (Progressive Web Apps) is hugely important because it enables a future where web apps can natively support browser, Mac/Windows/Linux desktop, and mobile iPhone/Android/Windows native mobile with a single codebase of open technologies. Why after over 30 years of experiencing cross platform "write once run anywhere* technologies do developers still think that's the best user experience? Yes it mak…

I'm not trying to argue that it is the BEST user experience. I'm trying to say that it is hurting small dev shops and startups because they are being forced to learn a completely new tech stack in order to play ball. I could have spent that time implementing new features that users would actually use and in turn improve their business, or in this case, reach and help more people with valuable medical advice. In the e…

Yes, the end product has an arguably better and 'native-like' experience, but it took me longer to do and it is lacking some of the features that I could have rolled out if I was able to use PWA's. And it would have worked on Android out of the box as well.

So am I as an end user suppose to be upset that you were forced to make a better product.

Holding back innovation for the company's selfish reasons?

Back in 2008 they said the same thing about Apple not supporting Flash and Java.

If anyone is being selfish to try foist cross platform apps that you admitted weren't as good, it isn't Apple.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#390

Post by comex »

marcosdumay wrote: post #312
falcolas wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> iOS app written by someone like OP That's a business choice that they made, and will suffer for. If a developer and business choose to half-ass the native iOS application, there's no reason to believe it would behave any better on iOS when written as a webapp. > the tools they need to write the best product they can The best product that can be made will never be made with cross-platform tooling. It will always be…

> My proof for this? Java programs. TCL programs. Electron programs. Do you feel the same way with QT? There's a reason all of those you cited failed. That reason is not "a cross platform environment can not be good".

Qt is better than the other toolkits in your quote, but on macOS, Qt apps still feel somewhat out of place and inferior to true native apps.
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