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Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

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Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#311
post #42

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The vibe you have is wrong. It's not about learning a new language. Most web developers are comfortable in many languages. Plase stop attacking a straw-man. Not many web developers say stuff like "omg these new things are web scale" or "oh javascript is everything I need, I hate everything else". Yeah the author didn't want to learn a new language. Which is not an insane decision at the very beginning of a project. T…

But can you reuse UX? UX on Android and iOS are completely different, which implies different UI, which in the end of the day implies different codebase. I do believe that it's possible to implement an app indistinguishable from native with any technology given enough time to implement all UX guidelines (voiceover support, animation dynamics like scroll list velocity constants, disability stuff, etc) but than we spen…

No single top 100 app (except those made by Google or Apple) uses the default system UI components. Google does not follow its own UX guidelines.

Everybody by now knows what a hamburger button, tabs, and toggle switches do.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But as an iOS user I expect you to use the technology stack provided by my preferred operating system. I don't want to use your app if you're targeting a lowest-common-denominator feature set. I would wager that the average quality of an iOS app written by someone like OP that "has a web experience and _has_ to learn iOS just to work on that platform" will probably be lower than if that person (with web experience)…

> iOS app written by someone like OP That's a business choice that they made, and will suffer for. If a developer and business choose to half-ass the native iOS application, there's no reason to believe it would behave any better on iOS when written as a webapp. > the tools they need to write the best product they can The best product that can be made will never be made with cross-platform tooling. It will always be…

> My proof for this? Java programs. TCL programs. Electron programs.

Do you feel the same way with QT?

There's a reason all of those you cited failed. That reason is not "a cross platform environment can not be good".

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#313

I think a lot of commenters here are missing the point and getting distracted by push notifications (who wants a website spamming them with notifications?) and loading screens (hardly a feature). Apple supporting PWA (Progressive Web Apps) is hugely important because it enables a future where web apps can natively support browser, Mac/Windows/Linux desktop, and mobile iPhone/Android/Windows native mobile with a singl…

But as an iOS user I expect you to use the technology stack provided by my preferred operating system. I don't want to use your app if you're targeting a lowest-common-denominator feature set. When I change my preferred text size through accessibility settings, good native apps respond correctly. If I need voice over support, the operating system knows how to read the view hierarchy to me in a logical way. When drag-…

Could not agree more. How does a PWA use ARKit? How does a PWA integrate with the camera? How about the accelerometer? What about iCloud, Handoff, or any number of iOS technologies? Perhaps Metal or other iOS graphics technology? What about TouchId? Bluetooth?

I also find the comment about needing to learn a new stack “React Native and Xcode” to be ridiculous– no, what needs to be learned is Swift and Xcode.

Far too many “web” developers consider native mobile to be some kind of subset of web development and thus expect to use the same tools as they use for web.

Web is a different medium! If you want to program embedded systems, then the first question isn’t “how can I do this with JavaScript?” They would learn the correct language for the platform, perhaps embedded C. You don’t launch a Linux server and then ask “how can I make this server run Windows? I guess I should write a JavaScript library for that!” It’s ludicrous.

With iOS, developers often just think of it as a “native” website rather than an actual application. It seems like some developers will do everything possible to avoid simply learning Swift and making actual apps that fully exploit the power of the device.

React Native – if that is considered “good” then we have major problems. Facebook applications are horrible at power management; they suck power at phenomenal rates compared to other applications. The smoothness of the UI isn’t as “native” as actual Swift apps coded correctly. There always seem to be a slight amount of glitch in the experience. Facebook has famously avoid actually coding real native apps – from the beginning of their mobile experience they have seemingly embraced doing everything except writing actual Swift or Objective C. It is almost a religious opposition to it – and despite being a multi-billion dollar company, some tiny app studio in Poland could write higher quality apps. It should be an embarrassment, but they’re Facebook so everyone just accepts the status quo of less than perfect. No person here can say that the Facebook apps are perfect. But they should be. They have a gazillion dollars and can hire almost anyone they want, so they have no excuse for anything less than perfection. At the very least get power management right!

There’s always this argument that x-Native is “good enough” – if, as a company you want “good enough,” then keep making apps that conform to the lowest common denominator. If you want to make extraordinary applications that move the needle of quality, then use Swift and build it correctly.

This will likely get downvoted into oblivion because the HN crowd seems to be exhaustingly enamored with React Native, however, regardless of how it’s framed, writing PWAs or using some cross-platform “solution” is a cop-out. It’s lazy and it provides users with an experience that is worse than they deserve.

iOS is better than Android in so many ways, yet developers insist on making iOS apps that are really just cross-platform compromises.

My tiny bootstrapped company is working to release our iOS app, with Android soon to follow – if we can do it, there seems little excuse for actual funded companies to skimp on providing the best experience for users. Those arguing that PWA or x-Native cross platform systems are just as good as actual native, well there is no amount of argument that will change your minds. Which is sad. Rather than trying to make React Native, etc. “better” why not just use what is already better? Why not let users enjoy the full power of their devices instead of writing these average “good enough” compromises. It’s like this ridiculous trend of using Electron or, in the past Adobe Air. Nowhere near the quality of writing an actual native app. Looking at you Slack. Slack is even proud to have made a “native app with web technologies.” WHY? Damnit make a native app with native technologies! Can you not hire two actual MacOS developers? Why should making Electron apps be celebrated? It’s sloppy. It’s lazy. It’s a disservice to users. Why use some Electron-wrapped webpage and just not the webpage?

Every day it seems on HN people are posting about but very few posts about Swift. Is there some opposition that I am missing? Why must JavaScript be the language of everything? what ever happened to picking the right language for the job rather than trying to force a web peg into a native hole.

By the way, my exact arguments could be made for Android development as well. Android users are also being short-changed by these pseudo-native cross platform “solutions.”

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#314
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple supporting PWA (Progressive Web Apps) is hugely important because it enables a future where web apps can natively support browser, Mac/Windows/Linux desktop, and mobile iPhone/Android/Windows native mobile with a single codebase of open technologies. Why after over 30 years of experiencing cross platform "write once run anywhere* technologies do developers still think that's the best user experience? Yes it mak…

GMail was (and maybe keeps being) a much better user experience than native email clients for desktop PCs.

Completly disagree.

I only use GMail as gateway to aggregate my email accounts and synchronize with my Android devices, native mail client.

On Windows and GNU/Linux systems at home, I happily keep using Thunderbird.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#315
post #233

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As an iOS user, do you ever use websites that are more than plain hypertext, even if they don't try to have an iOS native look?

A website is not an app. Not sure why I need to explain that.

Because some websites like forums, email clients, chats, calendars, stores, etc. are definitely applications, even though they're still websites and not native apps.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

whats the issue if you're granting permission for them though? just say no if it's from Buzzfeed, yes if it's from my XYZ service - that's all it takes. And - I would expect notification management would need to be similarly accessible. Notifications are tough to do as is - and a core user need. You and I might turn them off, but many people rely on them heavily. If I have responsive web app with notifications - that…

I may be wrong about this, but it seems like waking up a web app periodically to check for notifications would use a lot more power (and maybe data) than it does for a native app. Web apps in general are going to be less efficient, aren't they? So a web app is easier for you, but aren't you really just transferring the cost to your users in the form of battery and data consumption?

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say a lot more power - and apple could potentially integrate it with their existing push service.

Would it be, in a way, pushing costs onto users? potentially. But, it's a matter of shipping something that works at the loss of some battery and data usage (minimal) or spending 6 months to a year learning and developing a native app which is more efficient for end users. But both approaches are subject to market validation - one lets you reach validation quickly, the other requires quite a detour.

So, I'd rather not throw away all that time. If I can get notifications that work, even if only checked every 10 minutes vs. instant, I would be happy. Then, if there is market fit and proper demand, I can likely afford the time/money to build out a native experience.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The DOM and CSS are good underlying principles. It would be nice if there was an alternative to HTML, like something encoded in JSON. As to JavaScript, with WebAssembly coming, there may be options in the future.

> something encoded in JSON Those who do not learn the lessons from XML are doomed to repeat XML. The DOM is simply an in-memory representation of an XML structure, and any attempts to populate a DOM with JSON (or YAML or ProtoBuffers or...) will simply re-create XML. CSS is a language for writing XML transformations (i.e. XSLT). Of course, we already have JSON versions of schemas, transformations, xpath, namespaces,…

Honestly, we could have a cleaner XML. There's plenty of cruft there, the language could be easier to parse and navigate. We could also have a cleaner XSLT while keeping it's completeness.

We could have a better DOM too. It could be more semantic, and more modular. The good thing is that on this one we are moving in the right direction.

CSS would gain by becoming Turing complete. It also could be aware of runtime values.

But yes, JSON, YAML, and ProtoBuffers are all worsened versions of it. The good news is that we abandoned SOAP, but at the cost of abandoning service directories too.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#318
post #10

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Is there a reason for users to care about this at all? Because it seems to me that this just solves problems for developers while making the user experience worse or not as good as it could be. The same goes for Electron-based apps.

>The same goes for Electron-based apps. When it comes to Electron apps I think any failing to provider a top notch user experience is on the developer and not on the technology. Visual Studio Code is based on Electron and it is hands down the best text editor/IDE-lite out there because the team behind it put the time in to make seem like the type of app you would get out established UI frameworks within the target en…

It might be faster than Atom, but it surely feels sluggish compared with other native editors on my system.

I only put up with it due to being the editor with the best support for Rust plugins.

The day I can have the same experience on Emacs for Rust, VSCode gets kicked out.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just want to note that as a developer you can run any code you want on your iPhone through XCode for free. You just can't distribute it in the App Store without a license ($100 a year). You can distribute the code though, and users can compile and install it. This is how Kodi distributes on Apple platforms. This is a newish change though, within the last couple of years.

Many entitlements still require you to buy a certificate from Apple. You cannot, for example, compile and run your own VPN software.

Buy? I've never seen anything to suggest that special entitlements from Apple (KEXT signing on Mac, Network Extension usage on iOS, etc.) requires any payment besides the $100/yr developer program fee

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#320
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GMail was (and maybe keeps being) a much better user experience than native email clients for desktop PCs.

It's better in that it required no configuration. But from a UI perspective it feels inferior. For example, native clients can just show you a list of all your messages, but GMail still paginates like a late-90s PHP site.

I think PC clients back then paginated too. They didn't group emails by thread either, and at least Outlook still doesn't by default.
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