Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#261

Post by emsy » Thu, Jul 27, 2017, 3:35 PM UTC

interpol_p wrote: post #162

emsy wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't want to use your app if you're targeting a lowest-common-denominator feature set. You might even use a hybrid app without it knowing. Many apps just need to show some buttons, input fields, images or a map and hit a web service. Brushing ALL hybrid apps off as useless is in my eyes just ignorant.

It's possible. I still use web apps (e.g., Slack client on macOS). But I dislike them compared to good native apps, mostly due to their lack of consistency with the platform and general sluggishness. If I'm using a web app and not realising it, then I would happily keep using that app. I do not think I am, though. Also, there are plenty of native apps which are terrible and not consistent with the platform. I do not…

I get your point and do have a strong preference towards native apps too.

But there are other important factors to consider. I was working on a B2B app where users could see graphs and maps of a construction site in real time. The users were extremely happy how fast we could implement and release change requests and bug fixes. It was an ionic app. As far as I know, performance or lack of OS integration was never a problem. At the end of the day it's about choosing the right tool for the task.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#262

Post by matthewmacleod » Thu, Jul 27, 2017, 3:36 PM UTC

Ajedi32 wrote: post #186

matthewmacleod wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do I need a native binary, tens of thousands of lines of code, an app with a massive permissions access to my device... You don't – but why do you need loading screens, push notifications, or any of that other stuff either? The web is great in concept for document-oriented information and some application uses. Mobile applications are greater for richer user interfaces and more device integration. They both have…

> loading screens, push notifications You seem to be laser-focused on this one tiny part of PWAs. There's way more too it than that, like offline support, background sync, etc. Imagine if you could press a button on the page to save that article you're reading for later, and have it available offline next time you need it. Or what if you could write a comment while offline, and have it be automatically posted next ti…

PWAs are just flat out _better_ than existing web apps. It's remarkable to me that so many people seem to be against these incredibly useful features just because the app they're using is web-based rather than native.

I think that's where we'll have to disagree in some sense.

Adding features to the web platform will of course mean that web applications have access to more features. Some of those are great – I'm really glad we have geolocation, for example.

The trade-off is that every feature added to the platform incurs cost and complexity. Trading these off is important; what is the point in web apps that do everything native apps do, but in a somewhat less good way?

There are obviously pros and cons here, and I'm not convinced that the use cases for more complexity are beneficial enough to justify it.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#263

Post by euyyn » Thu, Jul 27, 2017, 3:36 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #182

yellowapple wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure it boils down to "we're fancy iOS users who want nothing to do with those peasants over in the Android world". It seems like the majority of the comments opposing web apps oppose them because they're cross-platform and not written specifically for their chosen platform, which is a very silly stance to have. There are some more coherent arguments in play, don't get me wrong (in particular, the argument…

It's not. I feel the same way as 'interpol_p, and I'm an Windows/Linux + Android user. The webapp ecosystem is making the same class of mistakes pure-Java UIs used to. They assume e.g. that a textbox is just a rectangle on a screen that you can type stuff in. But it's not just that; it's much more . Each operating system has a large set of default UI behaviours and idiosyncrasies. Continuing the example, a native tex…

Text boxes in the web have had the same look & feel as native text boxes since between one and two decades ago.

When I right-click on the one I'm typing in right now, on Chrome running on a Mac, I even get an option to "Add to iTunes as a Spoken Track", whatever that might be, same as with the native text boxes.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#264

Post by TeMPOraL » Thu, Jul 27, 2017, 3:38 PM UTC

emsy wrote: post #251

TeMPOraL wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with emulating a FAT32 disk? I mean, the expected workflow is: I hook up the device to the computer, it shows up as a storage medium in my system. I can move files between the device and my computer as if it was an external disk or USB drive. Anything on top of that is designed to be annoying.

FAT32 is a terribly outdated filesystem and should just not be used today, period. The filesize and name restrictions are awful. Mrkrabo does have a point.

The question about FAT32 was honest; thanks for the explanation. The rest of the comment (presenting storage in a normal, non-surprising way) is separate, and still stands.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#265

Post by drusepth » Thu, Jul 27, 2017, 3:38 PM UTC

falcolas wrote: post #142

drusepth wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But as an iOS user I expect you to use the technology stack provided by my preferred operating system. I don't want to use your app if you're targeting a lowest-common-denominator feature set. I would wager that the average quality of an iOS app written by someone like OP that "has a web experience and _has_ to learn iOS just to work on that platform" will probably be lower than if that person (with web experience)…

> iOS app written by someone like OP That's a business choice that they made, and will suffer for. If a developer and business choose to half-ass the native iOS application, there's no reason to believe it would behave any better on iOS when written as a webapp. > the tools they need to write the best product they can The best product that can be made will never be made with cross-platform tooling. It will always be…

>The best product that can be made will never be made with cross-platform tooling. It will always be lacking. My proof for this? Java programs. TCL programs. Electron programs.

This is hard to argue for/against, because having one (native or cross-platform) generally precludes you from simultaneously having both (necessary for a proper comparison).

Of note: I find Slack's Electron client as good as, if not better than, many native applications that I also use in my workflow. There are also benefits I know exist (as a dev) that I don't see (as a user) like shared code that shouldn't be discounted just because the end-user can't see them -- they indirectly result in a better product for the end-user by making it easier to add new features and maintain existing code.

Also: I've never had any issues with Minecraft's cross-platform java client either. Would it be any better as separate native apps targeted at each platform?

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#266

Post by interpol_p » Thu, Jul 27, 2017, 3:39 PM UTC

ramses0 wrote: post #258

interpol_p wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But as an iOS user I expect you to use the technology stack provided by my preferred operating system. I don't want to use your app if you're targeting a lowest-common-denominator feature set. When I change my preferred text size through accessibility settings, good native apps respond correctly. If I need voice over support, the operating system knows how to read the view hierarchy to me in a logical way. When drag-…

You can't get pixel-perfect (including android) between all devices, but to the extent that a manufacturer enables a "better" experience, it gets much closer and more consistent behaviour compared to native apps: https://webkit.org/blog/3709/using-the-system-font-in-web-co... ...and even if you get pixel-perfect between android and ios, you sacrifice "cultural-correctness" (ie: floating buttons v. top bar v. bottom b…

I think PWAs are fine. I just wouldn't encourage them to be used side-by-side with native apps (e.g., deploying them to the home screen). It creates the expectation that they should culturally fit in with native apps, and they won't.

I'm okay with them living in the browser and gaining the performance advantages, offline support and push notifications.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#267

Post by TeMPOraL » Thu, Jul 27, 2017, 3:39 PM UTC

euyyn wrote: post #263

TeMPOraL wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not. I feel the same way as 'interpol_p, and I'm an Windows/Linux + Android user. The webapp ecosystem is making the same class of mistakes pure-Java UIs used to. They assume e.g. that a textbox is just a rectangle on a screen that you can type stuff in. But it's not just that; it's much more . Each operating system has a large set of default UI behaviours and idiosyncrasies. Continuing the example, a native tex…

Text boxes in the web have had the same look & feel as native text boxes since between one and two decades ago. When I right-click on the one I'm typing in right now, on Chrome running on a Mac, I even get an option to "Add to iTunes as a Spoken Track", whatever that might be, same as with the native text boxes.

> Text boxes in the web have had the same look & feel as native text boxes since between one and two decades ago.

They would have if people weren't "improving" them with JavaScript as some sort of a rite of passage, or something.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#268

Post by matthewmacleod » Thu, Jul 27, 2017, 3:40 PM UTC

euyyn wrote: post #199

matthewmacleod wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do I need a native binary, tens of thousands of lines of code, an app with a massive permissions access to my device... You don't – but why do you need loading screens, push notifications, or any of that other stuff either? The web is great in concept for document-oriented information and some application uses. Mobile applications are greater for richer user interfaces and more device integration. They both have…

I get plenty of push notifications from native apps that I find useful: e-mail, twitter, calendar events, chat. I can block those I don't want. That developers can't write a web app if they want as much as the option is ridiculous. Well, actually they can, as Twitter has shown. It looks like Apple is trying to pull an Internet Explorer on us though.

I don't agree with this.

Web applications are fine, and have their place. I'd argue that place is not as frequently-used, heavily interactive applications; native apps exist for that, and are better in most ways.

This is the thing – some publishers insist on using their stupid application when all I want to do is browse some content. Other publishers insist I use their shitty JS-HTML-Hybrid nonsense because they are too stingy to develop proper applications. I wish we could learn to more effective use technologies in the right places.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#269

Post by millstone » Thu, Jul 27, 2017, 3:41 PM UTC

euyyn wrote: post #230

scarface74 wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple supporting PWA (Progressive Web Apps) is hugely important because it enables a future where web apps can natively support browser, Mac/Windows/Linux desktop, and mobile iPhone/Android/Windows native mobile with a single codebase of open technologies. Why after over 30 years of experiencing cross platform "write once run anywhere* technologies do developers still think that's the best user experience? Yes it mak…

GMail was (and maybe keeps being) a much better user experience than native email clients for desktop PCs.

It's better in that it required no configuration. But from a UI perspective it feels inferior. For example, native clients can just show you a list of all your messages, but GMail still paginates like a late-90s PHP site.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#270

Post by jachee » Thu, Jul 27, 2017, 3:41 PM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #256

matthewmacleod wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do I need a native binary, tens of thousands of lines of code, an app with a massive permissions access to my device... You don't – but why do you need loading screens, push notifications, or any of that other stuff either? The web is great in concept for document-oriented information and some application uses. Mobile applications are greater for richer user interfaces and more device integration. They both have…

Wouldn't you at least consider this a useful use case: Purchase a flight online on a website, but then get a push notification if there is a flight change? Why should we force a user to download an app to support that use case.

Why not just use SMS instead? It's timely, and it works even if the target device is in an overcrowded airport and can't get mobile data.