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Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

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Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#211

Post by mgkimsal »

bo1024 wrote: post #178
ohitsdom wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The web" is a broad concept, but we should break it down to two distinct things: websites and web apps. You don't need all these extra features for a website. However, they are useful and needed for many web apps. Just because websites sometimes abuse these features doesn't make them bad.

I think this is such an important distinction that we should build it into web standards. A site should label itself as either a "plain site" or a "web app". "Sites" may only use a limited subset and amount of javascript (perhaps none?!). Browsers, search engines, and plugins can treat plain sites and web apps differently.

any site with a login is probably already self-identifying to some degree.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#212

Post by Ajedi32 »

albedoa wrote: post #200
Ajedi32 wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now imagine if you could do all of that faster and offline, while still avoiding the need to install a native app. That's something PWAs would enable.

PWAs would enable me to book a flight and comment on an internet post offline?

Yep, provided the app's developer wanted to implement such a feature: https://developers.google.com/web/updates/2015/12/background...

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#213

Post by ino »

Ajedi32 wrote: post #186
matthewmacleod wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do I need a native binary, tens of thousands of lines of code, an app with a massive permissions access to my device... You don't – but why do you need loading screens, push notifications, or any of that other stuff either? The web is great in concept for document-oriented information and some application uses. Mobile applications are greater for richer user interfaces and more device integration. They both have…

> loading screens, push notifications You seem to be laser-focused on this one tiny part of PWAs. There's way more too it than that, like offline support, background sync, etc. Imagine if you could press a button on the page to save that article you're reading for later, and have it available offline next time you need it. Or what if you could write a comment while offline, and have it be automatically posted next ti…

> Imagine if you could press a button on the page to save that article you're reading for later, and have it available offline next time you need it.

This is available on Safari, the same browser the author is bashing and comparing to IE.

And it's synced across macOS and iOS. It's called "reading list". It works with airplane mode and everything.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#214

Post by overcast »

euyyn wrote: post #206
overcast wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "walled garden" is what prevents the horrendous disjointed mess that is the Android phone market. Sure, for a guy who likes hacking around stuff, it's fun for you. But for everyone else, there is a thousand different phones, with a thousand different interfaces, all running different versions of the Android OS, that will never be updated by the phone manufacturer. I understand where you're coming from, I do. But…

> The "walled garden" is what prevents the horrendous disjointed mess that is the Android phone market. Sure, for a guy who likes hacking around stuff, it's fun for you. But for everyone else, there is a thousand different phones, with a thousand different interfaces, all running different versions of the Android OS, that will never be updated by the phone manufacturer. This is a non-sequitur. Fragmentation of Androi…

I was responding to the first two lines of their comment. If they are going to divert that way, then I'm going to respond to it.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#216

Post by falcolas »

dccoolgai wrote: post #192
falcolas wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> iOS app written by someone like OP That's a business choice that they made, and will suffer for. If a developer and business choose to half-ass the native iOS application, there's no reason to believe it would behave any better on iOS when written as a webapp. > the tools they need to write the best product they can The best product that can be made will never be made with cross-platform tooling. It will always be…

"The best product that can be made will never be made with cross-platform tooling." You're making a circular argument to the original point. If you pointlessly cripple the best "cross-platform toolset" (the web) then of course the products made with it won't be as good. Native mobile apps belong in the same category as desktop apps - they are good when you need close-to-the-metal graphics but there's no reason you sh…

> the best "cross-platform toolset"

I've used Electron apps where no such restrictions have been put in place; it has lead me to believe HTML/CSS/JavaScript is nowhere near the best "cross-platform" toolset. It's more accurate to say that it's the lowest common denominator. Electron desktop apps today look and act like Java apps from ten years ago.

I'd say that the onus is on web developers to prove that it is capable of creating cross-platform apps that are even as good as, say, Eclipse, before attempting to call themselves "the best".

> do some light word processing.

Due to how much latency affects typing and interaction with an editor, I absolutely do want a native desktop app - neither Atom nor VSC react quickly enough for my editing uses, and Google docs is aggravating to write more than a page or two in.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#217

Post by jwong_ »

christiangenco wrote: post #65

I think a lot of commenters here are missing the point and getting distracted by push notifications (who wants a website spamming them with notifications?) and loading screens (hardly a feature). Apple supporting PWA (Progressive Web Apps) is hugely important because it enables a future where web apps can natively support browser, Mac/Windows/Linux desktop, and mobile iPhone/Android/Windows native mobile with a singl…

What are you storing in your contacts database that's so huge that it can't be loaded over the network every time?

Are you hand-writing notes and storing the notes as images?

I use Apple/Google's built-in notes fields on the default addressbooks and it works just fine. I can't imagine having huge write-ups on individual contacts unless it was for some business purpose. In that case, I'd move to a dedicated note-taking application anyway.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#218

Post by mysterydip »

dccoolgai wrote: post #180
interpol_p wrote: post #72

I hate using web apps. On desktop, mobile, wherever. The author's list of things they want supported by Mobile Safari is just aggravating: > Here are a list of things you still can’t do with mobile safari due to Apple’s refusal to support them: > > Create an app loading screen > Use push notifications > Add offline support > Create an initial app UI to load instantly > Prompt installation to the home screen through b…

Sometimes I, too, pine for the days of "hyperlinks, text and images"-only web. So I turn off Javascript. You can too, if that's how you want to consume the web. That's the beauty of it - it allows for that by design. What I don't like is the position you are taking that "because I only want to consume the web that way, the Web itself should be hamstrung to my limited view of how it should work." There is no good reas…

Look at it from the opposite perspective though: "because I only want to develop webapps, the web itself should be bloated to contain everything I need to create apps already possible elsewhere."

"Because that's not the way I want to develop" is not a good enough reason to increase complexity, security footprint, and unintended side effects.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#219

Post by ChristianBundy »

ino wrote: post #213
Ajedi32 wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> loading screens, push notifications You seem to be laser-focused on this one tiny part of PWAs. There's way more too it than that, like offline support, background sync, etc. Imagine if you could press a button on the page to save that article you're reading for later, and have it available offline next time you need it. Or what if you could write a comment while offline, and have it be automatically posted next ti…

> Imagine if you could press a button on the page to save that article you're reading for later, and have it available offline next time you need it. This is available on Safari, the same browser the author is bashing and comparing to IE. And it's synced across macOS and iOS. It's called "reading list". It works with airplane mode and everything.

> And it's synced across macOS and iOS. It's called "reading list". It works with airplane mode and everything.

If only we had a standard way to do this...

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#220

Post by euyyn »

mrkrabo wrote: post #141
cryptica wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not surprising of Apple. They've always been a walled garden, that's why I don't buy their products. I like to own products that give me full control as a user. When the iPod came out, I never understood why I couldn't just drag the music files directly onto the device and I had to get iTunes and use iTune's tedious interface. Now they have the app store; another unnecessary restriction. As a developer, it's…

>When the iPod came out, I never understood why I couldn't just drag the music files directly onto the device and I had to get iTunes and use iTune's tedious interface. Because MTP is utter rubbish. Really, people complain about iTunes? It's never failed me as slow as it is. Try using MTP...

USB sticks became popular more than a decade ago, and not once have I had one fail to copy or remove a file by dragging and dropping.
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