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Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

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Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#191

Post by Spivak »

criley2 wrote: post #147
interpol_p wrote: post #72

I hate using web apps. On desktop, mobile, wherever. The author's list of things they want supported by Mobile Safari is just aggravating: > Here are a list of things you still can’t do with mobile safari due to Apple’s refusal to support them: > > Create an app loading screen > Use push notifications > Add offline support > Create an initial app UI to load instantly > Prompt installation to the home screen through b…

I completely disagree, to be frank. Why do I need a native binary, tens of thousands of lines of code, an app with a massive permissions access to my device... To read a news article? To book a flight? To comment on an internet post? Adding a few more "app features" to light web pages sounds a whole lot more attractive than banishing all useful functionality into the den of apps, where only larger teams and more expe…

But when everything is pushed to the web the same argument applies to your browser.

> Why do I need a web app, tens of millions of lines of code, a website with massive permissions to my browser.

> To read a news article?

> ...

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#192

Post by dccoolgai »

falcolas wrote: post #142
drusepth wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But as an iOS user I expect you to use the technology stack provided by my preferred operating system. I don't want to use your app if you're targeting a lowest-common-denominator feature set. I would wager that the average quality of an iOS app written by someone like OP that "has a web experience and _has_ to learn iOS just to work on that platform" will probably be lower than if that person (with web experience)…

> iOS app written by someone like OP That's a business choice that they made, and will suffer for. If a developer and business choose to half-ass the native iOS application, there's no reason to believe it would behave any better on iOS when written as a webapp. > the tools they need to write the best product they can The best product that can be made will never be made with cross-platform tooling. It will always be…

"The best product that can be made will never be made with cross-platform tooling."

You're making a circular argument to the original point. If you pointlessly cripple the best "cross-platform toolset" (the web) then of course the products made with it won't be as good.

Native mobile apps belong in the same category as desktop apps - they are good when you need close-to-the-metal graphics but there's no reason you should have to open up a desktop app to read the news or even do some light word processing.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#193

Post by phatbyte »

borland wrote: post #137
scrumper wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's more than a whiff of that in the article, for sure. Author at one point is put off Native by having to learn a "more complicated" language, i.e. Swift. It's hard to defend the assertion that Swift is more complicated than JS.

Full disclaimer, Swift is my favourite language by a long shot and I'd love to use it everywhere, but it really is very complicated in some places. Consider, for example, the interaction between generics in structs and classes, and protocols with associated types, and why you have to make stupid type-erasing wrappers like 'AnyObject' and so forth. JS barely even has types at all, let alone generics. There's a lot les…

I'm with you on Swift as well, beautiful language. But regarding JS, nobody these days write vanilla JS, most of devs are either using ES6 or TypeScript(which supports types and generics).

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#194

Post by TeMPOraL »

mrkrabo wrote: post #156
anc84 wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NO one said anything about MTP. Copying files > anything.

Copying files... how? Emulating a FAT32 disk? That sucks. exFAT? Patents. MTP? Sucks. So how?

What's wrong with emulating a FAT32 disk?

I mean, the expected workflow is: I hook up the device to the computer, it shows up as a storage medium in my system. I can move files between the device and my computer as if it was an external disk or USB drive.

Anything on top of that is designed to be annoying.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#195

Post by Spivak »

jasonlotito wrote: post #152
interpol_p wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I said, desktop Safari allows websites to prompt me for push notifications. I can't stand it: that a web site has the ability to display a modal prompt sheet that I have to cancel.

Disable it. It's a feature some people like and use. I like getting notifications from some services I use without needing to keep a browser window open on that page to get notified. And I like not having to download and install yet another flipping app to get that feature.

I cant imagine a service that you frequent enough to want push notifications but not enough that you would be willing to install a native app for a smoother experience.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#196

Post by dccoolgai »

jaffathecake wrote: post #151
interpol_p wrote: post #72

I hate using web apps. On desktop, mobile, wherever. The author's list of things they want supported by Mobile Safari is just aggravating: > Here are a list of things you still can’t do with mobile safari due to Apple’s refusal to support them: > > Create an app loading screen > Use push notifications > Add offline support > Create an initial app UI to load instantly > Prompt installation to the home screen through b…

I use the Facebook site added to my homescreen rather than a native app. Uses way less space & does everything I want Facebook to be able to do. I don't want push notifications from every site, but in this case it's valuable. I wish it worked offline-first, but I know it's something they're looking at.

Native apps are the new desktop apps. OK for gaming, overkill and gaping privacy hole for everything else.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#197

Post by scarface74 »

pluma wrote: post #39
IBM wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a reason for users to care about this at all? Because it seems to me that this just solves problems for developers while making the user experience worse or not as good as it could be. The same goes for Electron-based apps.

Push notifications? Every single messenger or anything that lets you set reminders. Note that features like push notifications are implemented with a discrete opt-in on every other platform already. Don't want notifications? Just say "Deny" when you're prompted. Offline support? Only if you happen to live in the 99.99% of the world that doesn't have 24/7 perfect WiFi/4G coverage with unlimited data. If you've ever ke…

The choice is between a web app or no app.

why do you assume that's a worse alternative?

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#198

Post by interpol_p »

Ajedi32 wrote: post #181
interpol_p wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we agree in some sense. > To read a news article? I refuse to use a native app for this (e.g., Apple News, Flipboard). I love reading my news on the web. In a browser. Where the page is the content and the browser is the convenience. Even better is having Safari's "Reader Mode" enabled constantly so every article is consistently and nicely formatted and I get just the text and links. > To book a flight? Same…

Now imagine if you could do all of that faster and offline, while still avoiding the need to install a native app. That's something PWAs would enable.

On reading news articles: I can do that offline and fast right now. I add things to my reading list as I browse the web and Safari downloads them in the background. Then I can read articles when I'm offline (like on a flight). I'm a pretty voracious user of the Reading List and Reader Mode features of Safari.

On booking a flight: I'm not sure how doing this offline helps? Last time I did it, I did have to wait for pages to load after clicking links but it was on the order of seconds or less. And not anything frustrating.

On commenting on an Internet post: Doing it offline is not really interesting to me, and I'm not sure how that would work (which is why I'm happy to do it in a browser). Hacker News is more than fast enough. It's really minimal.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#199

Post by euyyn »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #160
criley2 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely disagree, to be frank. Why do I need a native binary, tens of thousands of lines of code, an app with a massive permissions access to my device... To read a news article? To book a flight? To comment on an internet post? Adding a few more "app features" to light web pages sounds a whole lot more attractive than banishing all useful functionality into the den of apps, where only larger teams and more expe…

Why do I need a native binary, tens of thousands of lines of code, an app with a massive permissions access to my device... You don't – but why do you need loading screens, push notifications, or any of that other stuff either? The web is great in concept for document-oriented information and some application uses. Mobile applications are greater for richer user interfaces and more device integration. They both have…

I get plenty of push notifications from native apps that I find useful: e-mail, twitter, calendar events, chat. I can block those I don't want. That developers can't write a web app if they want as much as the option is ridiculous.

Well, actually they can, as Twitter has shown. It looks like Apple is trying to pull an Internet Explorer on us though.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#200

Post by albedoa »

Ajedi32 wrote: post #181
interpol_p wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we agree in some sense. > To read a news article? I refuse to use a native app for this (e.g., Apple News, Flipboard). I love reading my news on the web. In a browser. Where the page is the content and the browser is the convenience. Even better is having Safari's "Reader Mode" enabled constantly so every article is consistently and nicely formatted and I get just the text and links. > To book a flight? Same…

Now imagine if you could do all of that faster and offline, while still avoiding the need to install a native app. That's something PWAs would enable.

PWAs would enable me to book a flight and comment on an internet post offline?
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