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Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

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Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#181

Post by Ajedi32 »

interpol_p wrote: post #169
criley2 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely disagree, to be frank. Why do I need a native binary, tens of thousands of lines of code, an app with a massive permissions access to my device... To read a news article? To book a flight? To comment on an internet post? Adding a few more "app features" to light web pages sounds a whole lot more attractive than banishing all useful functionality into the den of apps, where only larger teams and more expe…

I think we agree in some sense. > To read a news article? I refuse to use a native app for this (e.g., Apple News, Flipboard). I love reading my news on the web. In a browser. Where the page is the content and the browser is the convenience. Even better is having Safari's "Reader Mode" enabled constantly so every article is consistently and nicely formatted and I get just the text and links. > To book a flight? Same…

Now imagine if you could do all of that faster and offline, while still avoiding the need to install a native app. That's something PWAs would enable.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#182

Post by TeMPOraL »

yellowapple wrote: post #138
SquareWheel wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why wouldn't you want that? PWAs are seamless (no downloading/installing), allow native features, can be saved offline for later, run in a secure sandbox, and are completely open and cross-platform.

I'm pretty sure it boils down to "we're fancy iOS users who want nothing to do with those peasants over in the Android world". It seems like the majority of the comments opposing web apps oppose them because they're cross-platform and not written specifically for their chosen platform, which is a very silly stance to have. There are some more coherent arguments in play, don't get me wrong (in particular, the argument…

It's not. I feel the same way as 'interpol_p, and I'm an Windows/Linux + Android user.

The webapp ecosystem is making the same class of mistakes pure-Java UIs used to. They assume e.g. that a textbox is just a rectangle on a screen that you can type stuff in. But it's not just that; it's much more.

Each operating system has a large set of default UI behaviours and idiosyncrasies. Continuing the example, a native textbox may be a clickable rectangle accepting keyboard input, but it also has a set of well-defined behaviours for Tab-cycling, text navigation, right-click handling, keyboard shortcut handling, cut/copy/paste handling, etc. Web applications fail to replicate that functionality completely and consistently. And platform consistency is a feature - one that many users value.

On top of that add resource waste (spinning up a webview and parsing heavy markup languages just to show a bunch of buttons) and web-specific failure modes - many vendors do not care about making their webapp work correctly when connectivity is limited, spotty or lacking. Hence the occasional full-screen 404 or 501 or connection-lost error when you press a button.

I want my applications to be performant, platform-consistent and interoperable. Web apps fail at all three, hence I avoid them like the plague, and discourage everyone from developing them.

About the only benefit I, as a pro user, I get from web application is the relative ease one can reverse-engineer their backend APIs with.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#184

Post by interpol_p »

pas wrote: post #146
interpol_p wrote: post #72

I hate using web apps. On desktop, mobile, wherever. The author's list of things they want supported by Mobile Safari is just aggravating: > Here are a list of things you still can’t do with mobile safari due to Apple’s refusal to support them: > > Create an app loading screen > Use push notifications > Add offline support > Create an initial app UI to load instantly > Prompt installation to the home screen through b…

> Why do I want these things, as a user. App loading screens? Maybe because it's a business app, and the loading screen checks whether you are on intranet (corp wifi) or not. > I don't want push notifications, I barely enable them for native apps. I would enable them for important apps (eg. business apps), so I want the technology, but I absolutely hate the popups on news sites for notifications. So nobody wants that…

> Let's say a fitness app. Let's say a basic simple fucking calendar app. Or a whatever run of the mill business workflow shit app, that requires your attention from time to time. And it'd be easier if there were no need to build for every fucking platform.

Yeah I wouldn't have been a Mac or iOS user if I wasn't anal about every single app on my system being a good citizen. From the simple fucking calendar app, fitness app, or whatever. I expect the developers of those apps to be as passionate about the pixels I interact with as I am.

Attention to detail is a reason these platforms are so loved. Encouraging "simple fucking calendar" apps to disregard the platform in their design is exactly the opposite reason I chose this platform to begin with.

> And it'd be easier if there were no need to build for every fucking platform.

It's easier to build badly for every platform. But no matter what technology stack you choose, if you want to build well for every platform then you are in for a lot of work. Cross platform is not going to make it easier because writing code is not the hard part.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#185

Post by TeMPOraL »

Ajedi32 wrote: post #171
interpol_p wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've written quite a few apps for both iOS and Android. While I'm not an Android user, when I build an Android app I try to embrace the platform's strengths. I try to understand best practice, and follow the designs encouraged by Google. The resulting apps often look and behave completely differently between iOS and Android because the platforms are so different . I have mixed opinions about a lot of Android's design…

> But there still is no web app on macOS or iOS that feels good, consistent and integrated in the same way that a good native app feels. Part of that though is because they _don't_ allow PWAs. Contrast that with Android, where it's now entirely possible to make a PWA so deeply integrated into the OS that the average user can't even tell it's not a native app: https://blog.chromium.org/2017/02/integrating-progressive-…

> Contrast that with Android, where it's now entirely possible to make a PWA so deeply integrated into the OS that the average user can't even tell it's not a native app

Oh, but quite many will be able to tell after 5 seconds of using it. The rest will realize the moment the Internet connection drops temporarily.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#186

Post by Ajedi32 »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #160
criley2 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely disagree, to be frank. Why do I need a native binary, tens of thousands of lines of code, an app with a massive permissions access to my device... To read a news article? To book a flight? To comment on an internet post? Adding a few more "app features" to light web pages sounds a whole lot more attractive than banishing all useful functionality into the den of apps, where only larger teams and more expe…

Why do I need a native binary, tens of thousands of lines of code, an app with a massive permissions access to my device... You don't – but why do you need loading screens, push notifications, or any of that other stuff either? The web is great in concept for document-oriented information and some application uses. Mobile applications are greater for richer user interfaces and more device integration. They both have…

> loading screens, push notifications

You seem to be laser-focused on this one tiny part of PWAs. There's way more too it than that, like offline support, background sync, etc. Imagine if you could press a button on the page to save that article you're reading for later, and have it available offline next time you need it.

Or what if you could write a comment while offline, and have it be automatically posted next time you have a connection. (Or optionally, have a notification pop-up next time you're online asking if you still want to post it.)

PWAs are just flat out _better_ than existing web apps. It's remarkable to me that so many people seem to be against these incredibly useful features just because the app they're using is web-based rather than native.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#187

Post by krapp »

bo1024 wrote: post #178
ohitsdom wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The web" is a broad concept, but we should break it down to two distinct things: websites and web apps. You don't need all these extra features for a website. However, they are useful and needed for many web apps. Just because websites sometimes abuse these features doesn't make them bad.

I think this is such an important distinction that we should build it into web standards. A site should label itself as either a "plain site" or a "web app". "Sites" may only use a limited subset and amount of javascript (perhaps none?!). Browsers, search engines, and plugins can treat plain sites and web apps differently.

>A site should label itself as either "just a site" or a "web app". "Sites" may only use a limited subset and amount of javascript (perhaps none?!). Browsers, search engines, and plugins can treat sites and web apps differently.

I too dislike the fact that web developers have the freedom to make design decisions with which I disagree.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#188

Post by chasing »

> Apple thinks you should learn a completely different and more complex programming language (Objective-C/Swift) and maintain a completely separate code base for iOS. This effectively hurts small dev shops, stifles innovation, makes startups much more difficult to get going.

ObjC/Swift may be somewhat more complex than Javascript (or whatever) as programming languages, but one thing I like about iOS development right now is the relatively stable and well-integrated toolset.

I love web development. It's how I got started in all of this. But. The web development world is (in my eyes) currently an over-complex mess of standards and practices and tools coming from twenty different directions and sometimes changing radically from one year to the next. And I have complained before about the fact that Javascript is the primary language for using all of these. (I know, you use XXXScript which transpiles into Javascript. But that kind of adds evidence to my point, no?)

Anyway, this is not a central point to the article linked, but just something that caught my eye.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#190

Post by quadrangle »

When I think "progressive web…" I think of progressive enhancement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_enhancement i.e. make regular non-JavaScript websites as a foundation and add JavaScript just to enhance that.

I suppose this is a compatible idea, but the PWA idea is based on everything going in the wrong direction generally. PWA aims to make everything "app" like even when it's not warranted. The vast majority of apps and PWAs don't need to exist at all. People don't need all this JavaScript interactive excess.

What I like about PWAs: a move away from everyone downloading ridiculous numbers of apps for each website. What I don't like about PWAs: turning websites into apps when not needed.

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