Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#171

Post by Ajedi32 » Thu, Jul 27, 2017, 2:15 PM UTC

interpol_p wrote: post #148

yellowapple wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure it boils down to "we're fancy iOS users who want nothing to do with those peasants over in the Android world". It seems like the majority of the comments opposing web apps oppose them because they're cross-platform and not written specifically for their chosen platform, which is a very silly stance to have. There are some more coherent arguments in play, don't get me wrong (in particular, the argument…

I've written quite a few apps for both iOS and Android. While I'm not an Android user, when I build an Android app I try to embrace the platform's strengths. I try to understand best practice, and follow the designs encouraged by Google. The resulting apps often look and behave completely differently between iOS and Android because the platforms are so different . I have mixed opinions about a lot of Android's design…

> But there still is no web app on macOS or iOS that feels good, consistent and integrated in the same way that a good native app feels.

Part of that though is because they _don't_ allow PWAs. Contrast that with Android, where it's now entirely possible to make a PWA so deeply integrated into the OS that the average user can't even tell it's not a native app: https://blog.chromium.org/2017/02/integrating-progressive-we...

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#172

Post by VeejayRampay » Thu, Jul 27, 2017, 2:15 PM UTC

I'll just recycle a comment from a few days ago, it's (un)surprisingly fitting:

"You know the rule, Apple ALWAYS gets a pass. No matter what they do, no matter how bad they treat their customers, no matter how awful their "upgrades" are, no matter how non-configurable and locked-in their products get over time, no matter the lack of innovation for the past 5 years, they always get a pass. Deal with it, that Jobs residue works its magic for a loooooong time."

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#173

Post by scarface74 » Thu, Jul 27, 2017, 2:15 PM UTC

christiangenco wrote: post #65

I think a lot of commenters here are missing the point and getting distracted by push notifications (who wants a website spamming them with notifications?) and loading screens (hardly a feature). Apple supporting PWA (Progressive Web Apps) is hugely important because it enables a future where web apps can natively support browser, Mac/Windows/Linux desktop, and mobile iPhone/Android/Windows native mobile with a singl…

Apple supporting PWA (Progressive Web Apps) is hugely important because it enables a future where web apps can natively support browser, Mac/Windows/Linux desktop, and mobile iPhone/Android/Windows native mobile with a single codebase of open technologies.

Why after over 30 years of experiencing cross platform "write once run anywhere* technologies do developers still think that's the best user experience? Yes it makes life easier for the developer but it's rarely best for the user.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#174

Post by sidlls » Thu, Jul 27, 2017, 2:17 PM UTC

interpol_p wrote: post #72

I hate using web apps. On desktop, mobile, wherever. The author's list of things they want supported by Mobile Safari is just aggravating: > Here are a list of things you still can’t do with mobile safari due to Apple’s refusal to support them: > > Create an app loading screen > Use push notifications > Add offline support > Create an initial app UI to load instantly > Prompt installation to the home screen through b…

This mirrors my view as well. Using the browser as a terrible, partially functional app server as though it were some kind of gimpy VM is one of the worst things to have happened in this industry.

Building what should be simple dynamic websites as native apps is as bad. Many things that are "appified" seem to me to be too complicated when developed as web apps and have too simplistic a use case when developed as native ones for mobile.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#175

Post by Ajedi32 » Thu, Jul 27, 2017, 2:17 PM UTC

sambe wrote: post #51

eli wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Push notifications are opt in on every browser that supports them. I'm confident Apple could come up with a process that ensures you only get them if you want them and can easily opt out later.

Right, but as a user experience you get a phone that either annoys you into switching off all the features that can be used to bug you, or annoys you endlessly because you don't know how to switch it off, or doesn't have it on by default - in which case there's little point in implementing it all, because most will not even be aware they can switch it on.

Or you could do some kind of middle-ground like what Chrome is planning, where the user can only be prompted to enable notifications after they've reached some specific level of engagement with the site they're using: https://github.com/WICG/interventions/issues/49#issuecomment...

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#176

Post by scarface74 » Thu, Jul 27, 2017, 2:17 PM UTC

SquareWheel wrote: post #105

interpol_p wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but supporting the feature encourages developers to make web apps. Why would you want to encourage that?

Why wouldn't you want that? PWAs are seamless (no downloading/installing), allow native features, can be saved offline for later, run in a secure sandbox, and are completely open and cross-platform.

And that was such a great experience with Java applets....

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#177

Post by Pigo » Thu, Jul 27, 2017, 2:20 PM UTC

Can someone explain the difference between progressive web apps and webRTC? Are they related, or completely separate technologies? I just heard about them around the same time, and it seems like they have some things in common.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#178

Post by bo1024 » Thu, Jul 27, 2017, 2:20 PM UTC

ohitsdom wrote: post #157

interpol_p wrote: post #72

I hate using web apps. On desktop, mobile, wherever. The author's list of things they want supported by Mobile Safari is just aggravating: > Here are a list of things you still can’t do with mobile safari due to Apple’s refusal to support them: > > Create an app loading screen > Use push notifications > Add offline support > Create an initial app UI to load instantly > Prompt installation to the home screen through b…

"The web" is a broad concept, but we should break it down to two distinct things: websites and web apps. You don't need all these extra features for a website. However, they are useful and needed for many web apps. Just because websites sometimes abuse these features doesn't make them bad.

I think this is such an important distinction that we should build it into web standards.

A site should label itself as either a "plain site" or a "web app". "Sites" may only use a limited subset and amount of javascript (perhaps none?!). Browsers, search engines, and plugins can treat plain sites and web apps differently.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#179

Post by digi_owl » Thu, Jul 27, 2017, 2:21 PM UTC

mrkrabo wrote: post #156

anc84 wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NO one said anything about MTP. Copying files > anything.

Copying files... how? Emulating a FAT32 disk? That sucks. exFAT? Patents. MTP? Sucks. So how?

Ethernet over USB, FTP/SCP/SMB?

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#180

Post by dccoolgai » Thu, Jul 27, 2017, 2:21 PM UTC

interpol_p wrote: post #72

I hate using web apps. On desktop, mobile, wherever. The author's list of things they want supported by Mobile Safari is just aggravating: > Here are a list of things you still can’t do with mobile safari due to Apple’s refusal to support them: > > Create an app loading screen > Use push notifications > Add offline support > Create an initial app UI to load instantly > Prompt installation to the home screen through b…

Sometimes I, too, pine for the days of "hyperlinks, text and images"-only web. So I turn off Javascript.

You can too, if that's how you want to consume the web. That's the beauty of it - it allows for that by design.

What I don't like is the position you are taking that "because I only want to consume the web that way, the Web itself should be hamstrung to my limited view of how it should work." There is no good reason - when the capability exists - that the Web as a platform should be chaste with things like Offline-first and even push messages (which IMHO are a big privacy win over the current mode of getting updates about things you're interested in, because you can't ungive someone your email address but you can easily turn off notification channels.) "Because that's not the way I want to consume the web" is not a good enough reason to deny the rest of us who want to see the Web continue as a modern and relevant platform. If you feel like shouting "get off my lawn" at the kids using those things, just flip off JS.