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Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

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Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#161

Post by madeofpalk »

jorvi wrote: post #106
cryptica wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not surprising of Apple. They've always been a walled garden, that's why I don't buy their products. I like to own products that give me full control as a user. When the iPod came out, I never understood why I couldn't just drag the music files directly onto the device and I had to get iTunes and use iTune's tedious interface. Now they have the app store; another unnecessary restriction. As a developer, it's…

It's especially ironic once you remember that iOS 1 didn't even have apps: Steve said everything would be done on websites that would give a native experience...

Apple knew this wasn't true. They knew there was an public native SDK on the roadmap because web technologies didn't cut it.

The Stocks and Weather app were originally HTML/CSS/JS apps just like Dashboard widgets (note Steve Jobs actually describing these apps on stage as 'widgets'), but the performance just wasn't there so they got reimplented using native apis.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#162

Post by interpol_p »

emsy wrote: post #118
interpol_p wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But as an iOS user I expect you to use the technology stack provided by my preferred operating system. I don't want to use your app if you're targeting a lowest-common-denominator feature set. When I change my preferred text size through accessibility settings, good native apps respond correctly. If I need voice over support, the operating system knows how to read the view hierarchy to me in a logical way. When drag-…

>I don't want to use your app if you're targeting a lowest-common-denominator feature set. You might even use a hybrid app without it knowing. Many apps just need to show some buttons, input fields, images or a map and hit a web service. Brushing ALL hybrid apps off as useless is in my eyes just ignorant.

It's possible. I still use web apps (e.g., Slack client on macOS). But I dislike them compared to good native apps, mostly due to their lack of consistency with the platform and general sluggishness.

If I'm using a web app and not realising it, then I would happily keep using that app. I do not think I am, though.

Also, there are plenty of native apps which are terrible and not consistent with the platform. I do not like to use those either.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#163

Post by matthewmacleod »

interpol_p wrote: post #122
fredley wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Push notifications and home-screen icons are strictly opt-in. If you don't want them, don't opt, simple as. I use webapps for several things because I can much better protect myself from tracking and data-harvesting with a well-configured browser than I can using a native app.

As I said, desktop Safari allows websites to prompt me for push notifications. I can't stand it: that a web site has the ability to display a modal prompt sheet that I have to cancel.

There's a preference to disable this, though. Don't get me wrong - it's awful and I hate it. But I'm sure there are valid use-cases for people who use e.g. webmail.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#164

Post by simonh »

criley2 wrote: post #147
interpol_p wrote: post #72

I hate using web apps. On desktop, mobile, wherever. The author's list of things they want supported by Mobile Safari is just aggravating: > Here are a list of things you still can’t do with mobile safari due to Apple’s refusal to support them: > > Create an app loading screen > Use push notifications > Add offline support > Create an initial app UI to load instantly > Prompt installation to the home screen through b…

I completely disagree, to be frank. Why do I need a native binary, tens of thousands of lines of code, an app with a massive permissions access to my device... To read a news article? To book a flight? To comment on an internet post? Adding a few more "app features" to light web pages sounds a whole lot more attractive than banishing all useful functionality into the den of apps, where only larger teams and more expe…

Why on earth do you need loading screens, push notifications, home screen icons, etc for any of that?

I booked the holiday I'm currently on to China almost entirely on an iPad, I could easily have done all of it that way, with none of these features.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#165

Post by pmontra »

quickben wrote: post #153
criley2 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely disagree, to be frank. Why do I need a native binary, tens of thousands of lines of code, an app with a massive permissions access to my device... To read a news article? To book a flight? To comment on an internet post? Adding a few more "app features" to light web pages sounds a whole lot more attractive than banishing all useful functionality into the den of apps, where only larger teams and more expe…

There is that, and then there are performance intensive apps, and everything in between. Apple is ensuring that most of its ecosystem is fast and pleasant.

Fast and pleasant are useful tools to Apple's goal of making a lot of money, which is not bad per se.

The author got it right:

> Apple treats web apps like second class citizens because they don’t generate money like native apps in the app store.

There won't be good support for web apps unless they find a way to make money out of them. If the day comes that native apps don't make money anymore, maybe because everybody gives them for free as front end to services paid outside the Apple Store (think Slack), then Apple could improve Safari and live only with revenues from the hardware.

It's going to be a hard fight because the goals of Apple and the goals of developers (and maybe also the goal of their customers) are not aligned and they own the platform.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#166

Post by overcast »

cryptica wrote: post #90
jaffathecake wrote: post #30

Safari engineers have attended all service worker working group meetings, and they do contribute. However, I do share the frustrations over transparency. It's tough to get developers to care about things like offline-first, because it's tough for them to convince managers to allow them to spend time on a feature that won't work on iOS (since it won't work in Safari, and Apple has banned other browser engines on their…

This is not surprising of Apple. They've always been a walled garden, that's why I don't buy their products. I like to own products that give me full control as a user. When the iPod came out, I never understood why I couldn't just drag the music files directly onto the device and I had to get iTunes and use iTune's tedious interface. Now they have the app store; another unnecessary restriction. As a developer, it's…

The "walled garden" is what prevents the horrendous disjointed mess that is the Android phone market. Sure, for a guy who likes hacking around stuff, it's fun for you. But for everyone else, there is a thousand different phones, with a thousand different interfaces, all running different versions of the Android OS, that will never be updated by the phone manufacturer.

I understand where you're coming from, I do. But when it comes to a phone, I greatly prefer the standardized hardware/interface/OS over the free for all. I hate to use the "it just works" nonsense, but that is exactly what it does.

Working in the Enterprise, the iPhone is infinitely easier for us to troubleshoot, and manage. Because everyone is running the same thing.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#167

Post by johnny_reilly »

jaffathecake wrote: post #151
interpol_p wrote: post #72

I hate using web apps. On desktop, mobile, wherever. The author's list of things they want supported by Mobile Safari is just aggravating: > Here are a list of things you still can’t do with mobile safari due to Apple’s refusal to support them: > > Create an app loading screen > Use push notifications > Add offline support > Create an initial app UI to load instantly > Prompt installation to the home screen through b…

I use the Facebook site added to my homescreen rather than a native app. Uses way less space & does everything I want Facebook to be able to do. I don't want push notifications from every site, but in this case it's valuable. I wish it worked offline-first, but I know it's something they're looking at.

I'm the same - I've generally taking to avoiding native apps wherever it's possible. So I don't have the Twitter app anymore as Twitter is now a PWA: https://blog.twitter.com/engineering/en_us/topics/open-sourc...

Similarly Facebook is just fine without the app and I'm happy with it. It has notifications etc. I'd like it if it was offline first but I'm more than happy with it as is.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#168

Post by scarface74 »

cryptica wrote: post #90
jaffathecake wrote: post #30

Safari engineers have attended all service worker working group meetings, and they do contribute. However, I do share the frustrations over transparency. It's tough to get developers to care about things like offline-first, because it's tough for them to convince managers to allow them to spend time on a feature that won't work on iOS (since it won't work in Safari, and Apple has banned other browser engines on their…

This is not surprising of Apple. They've always been a walled garden, that's why I don't buy their products. I like to own products that give me full control as a user. When the iPod came out, I never understood why I couldn't just drag the music files directly onto the device and I had to get iTunes and use iTune's tedious interface. Now they have the app store; another unnecessary restriction. As a developer, it's…

So how do you do playlists when you just drag files to folders? What if you wanted the same song in multiple playlists? How do you do smart playlist? All of this is not as popular now as it was during the iPods heyday but it was popular then.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#169

Post by interpol_p »

criley2 wrote: post #147
interpol_p wrote: post #72

I hate using web apps. On desktop, mobile, wherever. The author's list of things they want supported by Mobile Safari is just aggravating: > Here are a list of things you still can’t do with mobile safari due to Apple’s refusal to support them: > > Create an app loading screen > Use push notifications > Add offline support > Create an initial app UI to load instantly > Prompt installation to the home screen through b…

I completely disagree, to be frank. Why do I need a native binary, tens of thousands of lines of code, an app with a massive permissions access to my device... To read a news article? To book a flight? To comment on an internet post? Adding a few more "app features" to light web pages sounds a whole lot more attractive than banishing all useful functionality into the den of apps, where only larger teams and more expe…

I think we agree in some sense.

> To read a news article?

I refuse to use a native app for this (e.g., Apple News, Flipboard). I love reading my news on the web. In a browser. Where the page is the content and the browser is the convenience. Even better is having Safari's "Reader Mode" enabled constantly so every article is consistently and nicely formatted and I get just the text and links.

> To book a flight?

Same thing for booking a flight, last time I did that was on a web site. With some forms and a few "Next" links to go to the next page until I was done.

It was nice to get the boarding pass in Apple Wallet though and then use that to board.

> To comment on an internet post?

I'm commenting on this post right here in Safari. I wouldn't ever want to use an app for it.

I don't need more "app features" on light web pages. Especially not the ones mentioned in the article.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#170

Post by jaxondu »

pavlakoos wrote: post #66
akmarinov wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://sensortower.com/blog/ios-app-size-growth According to this, Facebook was 32 MBs 4 years ago. It's similar with Twitter. It's their fault that they keep adding stuff to track you. And Facebook contains just about every library that has ever existed now.

But now Facebook mobile app is a different tech. It's ReactNative, not Obj-C, right?

React Native under the hood uses Obj-C to bridge to native Cocoa frameworks. For example when you uses a tag in JavaScript, it ends up calling iOS UIView.
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