Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

medium.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 451 posts

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#141

Post by mrkrabo »

cryptica wrote: post #90
jaffathecake wrote: post #30

Safari engineers have attended all service worker working group meetings, and they do contribute. However, I do share the frustrations over transparency. It's tough to get developers to care about things like offline-first, because it's tough for them to convince managers to allow them to spend time on a feature that won't work on iOS (since it won't work in Safari, and Apple has banned other browser engines on their…

This is not surprising of Apple. They've always been a walled garden, that's why I don't buy their products. I like to own products that give me full control as a user. When the iPod came out, I never understood why I couldn't just drag the music files directly onto the device and I had to get iTunes and use iTune's tedious interface. Now they have the app store; another unnecessary restriction. As a developer, it's…

>When the iPod came out, I never understood why I couldn't just drag the music files directly onto the device and I had to get iTunes and use iTune's tedious interface.

Because MTP is utter rubbish.

Really, people complain about iTunes? It's never failed me as slow as it is. Try using MTP...

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#142

Post by falcolas »

drusepth wrote: post #120
interpol_p wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But as an iOS user I expect you to use the technology stack provided by my preferred operating system. I don't want to use your app if you're targeting a lowest-common-denominator feature set. When I change my preferred text size through accessibility settings, good native apps respond correctly. If I need voice over support, the operating system knows how to read the view hierarchy to me in a logical way. When drag-…

>But as an iOS user I expect you to use the technology stack provided by my preferred operating system. I don't want to use your app if you're targeting a lowest-common-denominator feature set. I would wager that the average quality of an iOS app written by someone like OP that "has a web experience and _has_ to learn iOS just to work on that platform" will probably be lower than if that person (with web experience)…

> iOS app written by someone like OP

That's a business choice that they made, and will suffer for. If a developer and business choose to half-ass the native iOS application, there's no reason to believe it would behave any better on iOS when written as a webapp.

> the tools they need to write the best product they can

The best product that can be made will never be made with cross-platform tooling. It will always be lacking. My proof for this? Java programs. TCL programs. Electron programs. There has yet to be an application which uses the same GUI code across applications that is as good as a native application.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#143

Post by agmcleod »

interpol_p wrote: post #72

I hate using web apps. On desktop, mobile, wherever. The author's list of things they want supported by Mobile Safari is just aggravating: > Here are a list of things you still can’t do with mobile safari due to Apple’s refusal to support them: > > Create an app loading screen > Use push notifications > Add offline support > Create an initial app UI to load instantly > Prompt installation to the home screen through b…

I don't care much for notifications either. Offline support is pretty great though. Even when online, page load speed tends to be faster.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#146

Post by pas »

interpol_p wrote: post #72

I hate using web apps. On desktop, mobile, wherever. The author's list of things they want supported by Mobile Safari is just aggravating: > Here are a list of things you still can’t do with mobile safari due to Apple’s refusal to support them: > > Create an app loading screen > Use push notifications > Add offline support > Create an initial app UI to load instantly > Prompt installation to the home screen through b…

> Why do I want these things, as a user. App loading screens?

Maybe because it's a business app, and the loading screen checks whether you are on intranet (corp wifi) or not.

> I don't want push notifications, I barely enable them for native apps.

I would enable them for important apps (eg. business apps), so I want the technology, but I absolutely hate the popups on news sites for notifications.

So nobody wants that on mobile, but they still want to be able to use notifications when they start using an app from which they want to get notifications. It's that simple.

Let's say a fitness app. Let's say a basic simple fucking calendar app. Or a whatever run of the mill business workflow shit app, that requires your attention from time to time. And it'd be easier if there were no need to build for every fucking platform.

> why would I want to make the web worse by sticking icons for pages on my home screen?

Maybe people have great spatial memory (I like organizing icons on my home screen on Android), maybe you don't want to type?

> And browser-guided dialogs to put more icons on my home screen? Seriously?

Yeah. Consistent UX and security. Why not? It can be OS provided.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#147

Post by criley2 »

interpol_p wrote: post #72

I hate using web apps. On desktop, mobile, wherever. The author's list of things they want supported by Mobile Safari is just aggravating: > Here are a list of things you still can’t do with mobile safari due to Apple’s refusal to support them: > > Create an app loading screen > Use push notifications > Add offline support > Create an initial app UI to load instantly > Prompt installation to the home screen through b…

I completely disagree, to be frank.

Why do I need a native binary, tens of thousands of lines of code, an app with a massive permissions access to my device...

To read a news article?

To book a flight?

To comment on an internet post?

Adding a few more "app features" to light web pages sounds a whole lot more attractive than banishing all useful functionality into the den of apps, where only larger teams and more experienced developers can roll out even basic functionality.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#148

Post by interpol_p »

yellowapple wrote: post #138
SquareWheel wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why wouldn't you want that? PWAs are seamless (no downloading/installing), allow native features, can be saved offline for later, run in a secure sandbox, and are completely open and cross-platform.

I'm pretty sure it boils down to "we're fancy iOS users who want nothing to do with those peasants over in the Android world". It seems like the majority of the comments opposing web apps oppose them because they're cross-platform and not written specifically for their chosen platform, which is a very silly stance to have. There are some more coherent arguments in play, don't get me wrong (in particular, the argument…

I've written quite a few apps for both iOS and Android.

While I'm not an Android user, when I build an Android app I try to embrace the platform's strengths. I try to understand best practice, and follow the designs encouraged by Google. The resulting apps often look and behave completely differently between iOS and Android because the platforms are so different.

I have mixed opinions about a lot of Android's design philosophy, but there's no way I would build an Android app that didn't conform to the platform. Because I expect Android users enjoy consistency too.

There's probably some elitism in there. But there still is no web app on macOS or iOS that feels good, consistent and integrated in the same way that a good native app feels.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#149

Post by falcolas »

bluejekyll wrote: post #85
Dude2018 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Screw new features, using JavaScript and HTML/CSS for apps must die.

The DOM and CSS are good underlying principles. It would be nice if there was an alternative to HTML, like something encoded in JSON. As to JavaScript, with WebAssembly coming, there may be options in the future.

> something encoded in JSON

Those who do not learn the lessons from XML are doomed to repeat XML.

The DOM is simply an in-memory representation of an XML structure, and any attempts to populate a DOM with JSON (or YAML or ProtoBuffers or...) will simply re-create XML. CSS is a language for writing XML transformations (i.e. XSLT).

Of course, we already have JSON versions of schemas, transformations, xpath, namespaces, and incompatible decoders, so perhaps it is already too late for JSON.

Re: Apple’s refusal to support Progressive Web Apps is a detriment to the web

#150

Post by frusciante19 »

Well, I would argue the web is a detriment to the web. Apple will never prioritise dev experience to the... detriment of user experience, no matter how many devs tears are shed. The author is arguing for better web developer experience, from what I read.
Post reply on HN