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What happened to studying?

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Re: What happened to studying?

#21

Post by blahedo »

j_baker wrote: post #15

I've always figured that if I had to study for a test, there was something wrong. A test should judge if you know the underlying concepts, not how many facts you've memorized.

And think how much better you'd "know the underlying concepts" if, in addition to listening in lecture and staring blankly when they ask questions about the reading, you read a section in advance, did some practice problems, noodled around with assorted Wikipedia pages on the topic, talked to and sparred with your friends about the material, and dropped by the professor's office to nail down some esoteric edge case?

Actually, I'm guessing you did at least some of those things if you were a successful student. All of them are forms of studying; cramming facts for a test is but the slightest part (and, as you say, likely a sign of a poorly-written exam).

Re: What happened to studying?

#22

Post by pohl »

j_baker wrote: post #15

I've always figured that if I had to study for a test, there was something wrong. A test should judge if you know the underlying concepts, not how many facts you've memorized.

A test should judge if you know the underlying concepts

Isn't it a bit presumptuous for the student to dictate the criterion of the test like this? It's often easy for students to get underlying concepts, but education could be so much more, and teachers should be free to design tests of something more ambitious than understanding concepts.

I understood the basic concepts behind playing the piano at a young age: press the keys with variable force at rhythmic times - not conceptually difficult.

But a test designed to determine if I understand that would not measure an ability to apply that material.

Re: What happened to studying?

#25

Post by todayiamme »

The ugly truth is that kids don't study because they aren't expected to.

Let's face it as long as their kid gets that perfect GPA and is obedient enough most parents don't give a damn that they actually learn something. To my peers it's just a ritual they need to complete in order to have a good "life" whatever that is.

In fact, my teachers have scolded me for trying to derive stuff on my own. It is quite obvious to them that I should be spending time practicing to get marks instead. Who cares if I actually know that electric flux is only the field lines that penetrate the surface? As my teacher put it they'll check my mark sheet instead.

So, is it any shock that students don't study?

I know that I am learning the secrets of the universe in some ways, and what within my textbooks lie answers to questions that people have pondered over for centuries, but the truth is that no one else gives a damn. They know what a muon is because they need to know what a muon is. They can't see nature and they really don't care.

No one expects them to create things, that's left to those nuts like me (someone said this to me point-blank). What is expected of them is status, prestige and a good paycheck with a stamp that they won the rat race of life. Nothing more. Nothing less. Oh and a big house in the suburbs to show that they have arrived won't be too bad either.

In the end, this is a problem that is core to us as a society. Most kids are a mirror of how they were brought up, and only if they are taught to see things differently can the status quo change, but as anyone may tell you it takes integrity and it is just too damn hard. (no one makes the case better than Al Pacino in scent of a woman http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqsf0XynGz8)

Re: What happened to studying?

#26

Post by pohl »

_delirium wrote: post #19
telemachos wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you really never study a subject where at least part of what you needed to learn was facts? History? A foreign language (noun and verb forms, vocabulary, irregular noun and verb forms, genders, idioms)? Science? Computer science? Math? Literature? All of these subjects involve learning facts - at least some of the time. Yes, ideas are important, but so are facts.

Having enough command of background facts to quickly figure things out is useful, but beyond that, knowing where to look up the facts seems like a perfectly fine substitute for memorizing them. The real problem is if you know so little that you don't even know how to figure out what you need.

knowing where to look up the facts seems like a perfectly fine substitute for memorizing them

I suspect that you might revise this statement if you applied the simple metacognitive strategy of thinking about this as if you were a software system: if you put all of your facts on the other side of a high-latency lookup system — as you are suggesting — you limit the size your brain's base of associative firings. The work that one does to bring facts into the brain instead of leaving them in external storage allows those concepts to be quickly brought into the short-term "working memory" system where they can take part in cognitive activities. Eschewing practice and memorization limits the rate and scope of your thoughts. Worse yet, you won't know what you're missing. (This is the basic reason that Paul Graham's Blub programmer doesn't know what he's missing.)

Re: What happened to studying?

#27

Post by [deleted] »

pohl wrote: post #26
_delirium wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having enough command of background facts to quickly figure things out is useful, but beyond that, knowing where to look up the facts seems like a perfectly fine substitute for memorizing them. The real problem is if you know so little that you don't even know how to figure out what you need.

knowing where to look up the facts seems like a perfectly fine substitute for memorizing them I suspect that you might revise this statement if you applied the simple metacognitive strategy of thinking about this as if you were a software system: if you put all of your facts on the other side of a high-latency lookup system — as you are suggesting — you limit the size your brain's base of associative firings. The wor…

[deleted]

Re: What happened to studying?

#29

Post by kunjaan »

zackattack wrote: post #11

if you want students to study then you should eliminate grades. grades simply encourage them to game the system. of course, gaming the system is a very valuable real world skill.

There are deficiencies in certain grading schemes but "eliminating grades" is too radical and impractical solutions. How do you think we should evaluate the students at the end of the semester?

Re: What happened to studying?

#30

Post by seancron »

Natsu wrote: post #13
seancron wrote: post #4

This part made me cringe: "Marks herself points out that employers don’t generally care about the content of job applicants’ classes; they’re more interested in whether an applicant graduated, was able to meet deadlines, and work within a bureaucracy"

Sad, but probably true. One of the classes I remember the most was one that was set up to give engineering students an introduction to the workplace. So, you had business-like tasks (most of which were centered around Excel) and you were graded by whether you met, exceeded, or didn't meet expectations. In one assignment, I made a really fancy Excel spreadsheet (it was a producer/consumer type problem, and my 1s for p…

I agree that college should not be the end of learning. However, I wouldn't want to be taught by a professor that says "that employers don’t generally care about the content of job applicants’ classes; they’re more interested in whether an applicant graduated, was able to meet deadlines, and work within a bureaucracy."

If they truly believe that, it will reflect in their courses. Instead of trying to teach their subject to the best of their ability, they'll might instead give many deadline oriented assignments that do not help learning of any kind. Instead of being accessible for students to ask questions, they might make it a more difficult process to get in touch with them, rationalizing that "they don't really care about the subject, all they care about is getting a good grade, and graduating so they can get a job in some bureaucratic workplace."

Professors with that attitude can turn students off to a subject that they would have otherwise enjoyed, and make it more difficult to learn.

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