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SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

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Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#351

Post by orthecreedence »

abritinthebay wrote: post #187
brooklyntribe wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually hung out with a JP Morgan Chase banker the other day. Big into crypto. He said the SEC had no clue what was going on. They leave at 5 PM, and head home to wife's and kids, and mortgages. While the "kids" are hacking, micro-dosing, and working 100 weeks. And they are all of 17. It's not in their world. A 55 year old banker is not hacking solidity contracts at 3 AM. No way.

There are occasionally brilliant coders at 17 who produce things of beauty. It's wonderful to behold. They are rare. Sometimes the fire of youth produces fantastic ideas that change our world. Their initial efforts, though raw and non-optimal, show a beautiful gleam that - through effort by more seasoned developers - is polished into something beautiful. These are more common, but still rare. Most 17 year old coders…

I have been coding since I was 8. At 17, I had roughly 9 years experience. I built some really cool things with neural nets/genetic algorithms at 17, and they worked pretty well. However, I look back at the code I wrote and it almost brings me to tears how awful it is.

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#352

Post by rficcaglia »

wmf wrote: post #348
rficcaglia wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there are secondary community engagement and customer/user retention (lock-in?) benefits to using a token if the token is part of or essential to a yet-to-be-developed app, but not themselves traded, I cannot see why there would be any sense of an investment. but I would in such cases never market the sale of such tokens as an ICO or crowdfunding. I would offer them up for sale, as a product pure and simple. buy now.…

All tokens get traded. This is the point that I think a lot of people are missing.

yes, i am missing that...why must all coins be traded? why not just have a coin that is issued once and then spent by the owner?

where does it say that exchanges and trading are required? (serious question...is there any such requirement?)

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#353

Post by wmf »

rficcaglia wrote: post #352
wmf wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All tokens get traded. This is the point that I think a lot of people are missing.

yes, i am missing that...why must all coins be traded? why not just have a coin that is issued once and then spent by the owner? where does it say that exchanges and trading are required? (serious question...is there any such requirement?)

Some exchanges compete to support the most tokens (I guess to earn fees on the trading). If it's possible to transfer a token, exchanges will starting trading it immediately.

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#354

Post by chejazi »

modeless wrote: post #331
joshuaxls wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, we accept cryptographic proof of ownership for accreditation purposes.

How? On angel.co's accreditation form I only see a place to upload a single file containing one bank/brokerage statement. It says nothing about cryptographic proof of ownership, or even about providing multiple documents.

I think he meant "proof of crypto ownership" and not "cryptographic proof of ownership". So probably a screenshot of your balance on an exchange.

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#355

Post by hellbanner »

ceejayoz wrote: post #70
vkou wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fraud is fraud, regardless of whether or not you're stealing securities, magical internet money, or baseball cards.

Certain types of fraud are still likely to garner more attention, particularly when there's a dedicated law enforcement organization tasked with it.

Aaand front page of HN, the very next day:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14861925

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#356

Post by [deleted] »

hellbanner wrote: post #355
ceejayoz wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certain types of fraud are still likely to garner more attention, particularly when there's a dedicated law enforcement organization tasked with it.

Aaand front page of HN, the very next day: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14861925

[deleted]

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#357

Post by DennisP »

chejazi wrote: post #354
modeless wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How? On angel.co's accreditation form I only see a place to upload a single file containing one bank/brokerage statement. It says nothing about cryptographic proof of ownership, or even about providing multiple documents.

I think he meant "proof of crypto ownership" and not "cryptographic proof of ownership". So probably a screenshot of your balance on an exchange.

Generally, people with large crypto holdings do not keep most of it on exchanges, and certainly not on a single exchange.

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#358

Post by jpetso »

Jabanga wrote: post #216
jpetso wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basic rights are defined by various charters, constitutions, international agreements, and that's about it. If you find that one of those restrictions contradicts the ones applicable to your country and legal system, you have a good shot at changing it. (Point in case: gay marriage, and other Supreme Court rulings.) As for all other rights, those are determined by the government that is democratically voted in. If mo…

>Maybe moral right, but that depends on highly subjective morals and might therefore still get you into legal trouble. We're intelligent human beings. We should be able to arrive at some kind of consensus on what our moral rights our, through rational discourse. That's what I'm trying to do right now. My argument starts with what "the law" means: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/06/enforci...

> We should be able to arrive at some kind of consensus on what our moral rights our, through rational discourse.

In the commonly used sense of the term, the scope of morals by far exceeds what you'll get even reasonable people to agree upon. "Rational discourse" means that you need enough of an uncontroversial set of base facts that either party is willing to work with. I don't think we have enough of those to derive a single valid system of morals without injecting other, subjective, more controversial opinions in the process.

Say, you have a basic statement such as "All people should be equal", something that most can agree with. By itself, this isn't actionable, and won't determine how to handle a situation unambiguously. You could come up with a libertarian doctrine that all people should be given the same treatment regardless of their background or current situation, or you could come up with a socialist doctrine that disadvantaged people should get extra support to balance out unequal origins and misfortune. Or anything in between. None of these can be rationally discarded, because there's not enough source data to come to any conclusion to begin with. If you attempt to expand the set of source data, you will find many who disagree with you. That's why it's subjective.

That said, trying to distill what basic facts we do have, so that they can be worked with in a constructive fashion, is a commendable goal. Good luck!

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#359

Post by abritinthebay »

orthecreedence wrote: post #351
abritinthebay wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are occasionally brilliant coders at 17 who produce things of beauty. It's wonderful to behold. They are rare. Sometimes the fire of youth produces fantastic ideas that change our world. Their initial efforts, though raw and non-optimal, show a beautiful gleam that - through effort by more seasoned developers - is polished into something beautiful. These are more common, but still rare. Most 17 year old coders…

I have been coding since I was 8. At 17, I had roughly 9 years experience. I built some really cool things with neural nets/genetic algorithms at 17, and they worked pretty well. However, I look back at the code I wrote and it almost brings me to tears how awful it is.

Right, exactly - I've been coding in some form since I was 5 (in BASIC and PEEK and POKES) but the stuff I did as a teenager was fun exploration play.

It's important to do that! That's great for a programmer and it will likely have some cool ideas... and hell, maybe a product or something will come from it.

But the original post was just naive.

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#360

Post by dnautics »

KirinDave wrote: post #287
dnautics wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's talking about how the government systematically Rob's from the future through inflation - in particular hurting the poor the hardest and creating lost decades and millennials along the way.

> He's talking about how the government systematically Rob's from the future through inflation ... What? Wait... what? I'm actually more confused by your response. So, the idea is governments create inflation to... rob the poor? Also, who's Rob? > in particular hurting the poor the hardest and creating lost decades and millennials along the way Are you implying that millennials have... the government to blame for the…

No, governments create inflation to satisfy an illusion of control and stability over the economy, and a side effect is robbing the poor (and giving to the rich).

Think about it:. If you're poor and spending 90% of income on survival, an increase in the cost of living has a more dramatic effect on the margin of survival than the identical increase in cost of living for someone who depends on 20% of their income.

Moreover, it's frequently said that inflation is necessary to combat 'sticky wages'... If you read between the lines, that's effectively 'cheating the poor of their wages'.

The common retort is that the inflation is good for the poor because it reduces the real value of their debt. But in the real world outside the ivory tower of economists who never were actually poor, the poor are offered high interest loans, which are only barely ameliorated by inflation. People who benefit from low interest rates are corporate C-levels, banks, and leveraged an margin investment (which is most of the "1%"

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