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Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

scientificamerican.com

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Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#171

Post by naravara »

EliRivers wrote: post #155
naravara wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The burden of proof is on the one making unsupported claims, not on the one questioning the unsupported claims. When public health issues are concerned, the burden of proof is on the ones saying exposure does not present any risks worth worrying about. The FDA doesn't usually come in with the approach that we should just try everything out and see how it goes.

It's low frequency radio waves from submarines. No, wait, it's copies of Jane Austen novels, that's what causing the problem. Hang on; it's headphones being worn by people near you. That's what doing it. Wait one; it's the after-effects of that landfill of ET game cartridges. If you disagree, have you got any proof that these aren't the causes? Otherwise I guess it's start removing Jane Austen novels from the librari…

Since you’re so comfortable with it, just go ahead and dose yourself with everything you can get your hands on. Here in the real world people express some hesitation before shoveling suspicious new products down their gullets.

Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#172

Post by anigbrowl »

dekhn wrote: post #165
anigbrowl wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like an excellent reason to throw a lot of money at doing epidemiological studies then, doesn't it? I must say I'm very tired of naysayers with no positive proposals of their own who invoke the scientific method as a way of waving away problematics rather than engaging with their evaluation or mitigation.

Good epidemiology is a great investment. I wouldn't use the term "throw a lot of money"- we want a few good studies with unambiguous conclusions.

Quality costs.

Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#175

Post by oh_sigh »

izzydata wrote: post #35
dreamdu5t wrote: post #29

I think it's simple: fat unhealthy men have lower sperm counts and America has way more fat unhealthy men over the last 40 years. Doesn't look like the meta analysis dealt with this.

We can only hope. This would be a great example of natural selection at work if fat unhealthy people couldn't reproduce and thinner healthy people could.

Does a 50% drop in sperm density result in a 50% drop in conception rates?

Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#176

Post by qbrass »

scottLobster wrote: post #55
whalesalad wrote: post #42

Are cell phones in our pockets to blame? The effects of radiofrequency electromagnetic radiation on sperm function. – https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27601711 More info here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27076112 Also here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26949865 And here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26206279 Here too: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24982785 More fuel for the fire: https:…

Given that this decline apparently started in 1973, I'd say they're probably not the deciding factor.

1973 was also the year Bruce Lee died. Coincidence?

Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#177

Post by gorkonsine »

nate_meurer wrote: post #118
Raphmedia wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even worst is all the extra female hormones coming from birth control pills and livestock (mostly milk cows) that are not getting filtered out of by water providers.

If I may pick a nit: there are no pills in sewage streams. We're talking drugs in solution or suspension (the term "dissolved solids" is used in the water treatment industry). Drugs can very difficult to remove, and water treatment facilities are only able to remove roughly half [ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/only-half-of-drug... ].

I'm curious: if you run that substandard tap water through a reverse-osmosis system, how clean is the resulting water?

Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#178

Post by rustynails »

I'm playing devil's advocate here. I'm glad the testing has been done and hope to see robust discussion.

Some people are deliberating over 1973. It doesn't appear to be a magic year for when problems started. It appears to be the earliest date that was analysed.

The question of "so what" is important (even if people are being downvoted for asking it). At least one expert has said "despite the decline found in the study, average sperm counts still remain in the normal range."[1]. I won't claim to understand "normal" in this context.

What is even more fascinating is that every western country has negative population growth and has for quite some time [2]. In spite of testosterone levels being within normal range, western population numbers are going backwards across all countries. Why?

There are some historical lessons that some people are looking to (eg. The decline of the Roman Empire). I would add that there are other factors that are having a bigger impact than sperm count, namely the pill and career vs motherhood [3]. I greatly respected Kate Ellis (a local MP in South Australia) for publicly resigning and stating just how hard it is to be a committed mother and a woman with a full time career. The "career woman" is the principal type of woman represented by the media today and Kate's voice was very important to some women I spoke with who were relieved that somebody finally spoke out.

We don't even know if sperm count will have a significant impact compared to population decline. I support the investigation but it's part of a much bigger issue.

Is the issue principally chemicals? The data said Asia doesn't appear to be impacted and Asia has plenty of chemicals (and microwaves to respond to another poster).

Is the media contributing to the problem by downplaying the significance of motherhood for women? Are we undermining our collective strength by pretending that every human being is equal rather than recognising and accepting we are different? Should we focus on opportunity rather than outcome when we talk about equality?

Our population decline is a major issue and it apparently isn't linked to sperm count. Migration may be an answer to population decline, or, maybe it's a stop gap. Maybe, the answer can be found in our attitudes.

[1] https://www.newscientist.com/article/2141784-sperm-count-has...

[2] https://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?v=25

[3] https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/complete-without-kids/2...

Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#179

Post by gorkonsine »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #153
wonderwonder wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the best you can do in regards to tap water is some kind of filter. Effectiveness probably improves with cost. I have recently switched to getting 5 gallon water jugs delivered. Costs me about $60 per month. Not an optimal solution but I have no other real cure.

This sounds like living in a Third World country.

It is. People who have to resort to drinking bottled water because the tap water is unsafe do live in a third world country.

Draw whatever conclusion from that that you like.

Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#180

Post by dekhn »

azeirah wrote: post #119
xiaoma wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Welcome to HN. As someone who's been here for over a decade (and had this account nearly that long), I can assure you this is normal behavior for the forum.

The site doesn't encourage citing or critical thinking, although it does attract people who're interested in that. If you wish for a community like this, open a new thread and try discussing communities that do succeed at promoting critical and well-cited discussions like Reddit's /r/askhistorians.

I'm not sure if you're criticizing me for my reply above in which I ask the poster to provide data to support their claim. I'm a critical thinker, and when writing papers or making claims, can back up my claims with strong evidence. In this case, I am saying I have been unable to find a single paper that is high quality and supports the assertion that there is a detectable health effect in the population (excluding people who receive massive dosages, far beyond the dosages a regular person is going to get from eating food). I have seen many low quality papers purporting this, but in each case, I found either an invalidating error (failure to use bonferroni correction is most common, but there are many), or it was clear the author was being selective with their data reporting, or made an error in their procedure. That's pretty common, especially in the human health and nutrition sector, unfortunately.
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