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The quitting economy

aeon.co

21–30 of 196 posts

Re: The quitting economy

#21
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But how is it that there is always another company willing to pay more? Do companies hire devs with X years of experience without planning to pay more for X+1 years of experience?

They will pay you the range you ask for. If Joe is offered a job at 50k but he does not know the position range is 50 - 70k, he might accept it. Joe now has a job making 50k a year with the potential to earn 3% raises annually. Bob might be offered the same position, but right from the beginning he has indicated he expects to earn 67k or more, they will offer him 67k. The company will hire you for as little as they c…

I used to share the view that in a negotiation, never make the first offer. The fear is coming in way below as your example indicates. Over time, my attitude changed. I found that by constantly interviewing, I could get a feel for the local market, and have a much better idea of where the ceilings are.

For example over a few years and 3 jobs, I found that $120k was about the max for senior devs in my city and tech stack. When interviewing I would lead with "is 120k in the range for this position?". And getting that could sometimes be a stretch. When I found a company offering 10-15% above that, I took it. I knew they were desperate, and the work would probably suck (and I was right) but no overtime and lot's of vacation make up for it (for now).

Re: The quitting economy

#22
post #13

tl;dr: Our capitalistic economy, which incentivized the notion of "maximizing shareholder returns," created an environment in which Companies who are efficient in hiring the right amount of disposable assets. Because of this, employees better be ready to quit when they sense better pastures elsewhere. It was a good read, and a reminder that we are all subservient to the Shareholders (directly or indirectly). The comp…

The issue with abandoning the maximizing the shareholders profit mentality is that it has to be replaced with something else, and unless we change the way investment works, then it will still be serving the shareholders. The shareholders should be the one with power to make decisions, as they own the company. Additionally, not all companies serve greedy shareholders. Believe it or not, shareholders are people too who…

>The shareholders should be the one with power to make decisions, as they own the company.

They don't actually, see:

Consider first Friedman’s erroneous belief that shareholders “own” corporations. Although laymen sometimes have difficulty understanding the point, corporations are legal entities that own themselves, just as human entities own themselves. What shareholders own are shares, a type of contact between the shareholder and the legal entity that gives shareholders limited legal rights. In this regard, shareholders stand on equal footing with the corporation’s bondholders, suppliers, and employees, all of whom also enter contracts with the firm that give them limited legal rights.

http://scholarship.law.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?artic... [pdf]

>The issue with abandoning the maximizing the shareholders profit mentality is that it has to be replaced with something else, and unless we change the way investment works, then it will still be serving the shareholders.

But this is relatively easy! Instead of top level management being rewarded for stock price only, they should also be rewarded for other metrics, like customer satisfaction or how much they lowered the spread between median and mean wages. Hell, we could even allow it to be determined only by share price, but only the share price on a long time horizon, no sales within five years.

Re: The quitting economy

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They will pay you the range you ask for. If Joe is offered a job at 50k but he does not know the position range is 50 - 70k, he might accept it. Joe now has a job making 50k a year with the potential to earn 3% raises annually. Bob might be offered the same position, but right from the beginning he has indicated he expects to earn 67k or more, they will offer him 67k. The company will hire you for as little as they c…

> Lately I have seen a trend where people wont even ask the salary until they have interviewed because they don't want to appear rude. I just don't get it. This cuts both ways too. If a candidate asks the salary before the interview, many companies will perceive the candidate as not caring about the work, and being "only in it for the money". And if a candidate doesn't wait until the interview to discuss money, they…

I hear what you are saying and agree with you. A company though for the most part is "Only in it for the money" and I can't feed my family with work satisfaction. I would caution against working for a company that has a problem with me asking for the salary range. The entire point of a job is to earn money.

This is just my opinion though and is in no way a road map for others.

Re: The quitting economy

#24
"[...] thinking of themselves as the CEO of Me, Inc; and to survive in the neoliberal world of work, the CEO of Me, Inc must be a quitter."

I fail to see how that's a bad thing. I've never quite understood this notion of tying your fate, your welfare and your livelihood to a single company.

By not thinking of yourself as the CEO of Me Inc. you ultimately become a commodity for employers to do with as they please. At the very least there will be a power differential where the employer will always gain the upper hand in negotiations.

Seeing and marketing yourself as a service provider in a market economy instead will allow you to focus on creating value in lieu of trading time for money. This can be beneficial to both parties. This whole idea of using 'time spent' as a surrogate measure for 'value created' is a large contributing factor to waste in modern economies.

Re: The quitting economy

#25
post #2

This is very noticeable in London. It's a relative rarity to find a dev that's worked anywhere longer than a couple years. The simple economics of it is that until a certain salary, there is no easier way to ratchet up the pay scale then to use the negotiating leverage of having a job to get the next one on better terms. Meanwhile, the supply situation for devs is such that employers have to accept the situation. I'm…

> I'm not sure it's an employer led effect at all; especially given the size of the SME scene in London.

In the US at least, my experience has been that most employers would rather let a good dev walk than raise his/her salary to match the going market rate, even if said dev has copious amounts of domain knowledge, works well with the team, regularly receives positive feedback on performance reviews, and consistently ships high-quality code.

This is sad to me, but I also think employees are right to vote with their feet and seek jobs elsewhere in such circumstances. Maybe the high turnover will raise some red flags and cause the employer to implement changes. If not, then these employees are smart to leave what I think will prove to be a sinking ship in the long run.

Re: The quitting economy

#26
post #13

tl;dr: Our capitalistic economy, which incentivized the notion of "maximizing shareholder returns," created an environment in which Companies who are efficient in hiring the right amount of disposable assets. Because of this, employees better be ready to quit when they sense better pastures elsewhere. It was a good read, and a reminder that we are all subservient to the Shareholders (directly or indirectly). The comp…

The issue with abandoning the maximizing the shareholders profit mentality is that it has to be replaced with something else, and unless we change the way investment works, then it will still be serving the shareholders. The shareholders should be the one with power to make decisions, as they own the company. Additionally, not all companies serve greedy shareholders. Believe it or not, shareholders are people too who…

This is a good point; but perhaps we need to think a little more "meta" about the situation. In our era of late stage capitalism Finance dictates production - this is an inherently cannibalistic model of economics and it's not surprise that the U.S. labor market continues to degrade into a more "gig" (Considering a "tour of duty" a gig for arguments sake) economy that hurts the laborers the most.

We should question if this is the system we want to continue to perpetuate, or on the flip side do we want more regulations and restructuring of our market economy? The question is not "More or less market?" but rather "What kind of market?"

Re: The quitting economy

#27

tl;dr: Our capitalistic economy, which incentivized the notion of "maximizing shareholder returns," created an environment in which Companies who are efficient in hiring the right amount of disposable assets. Because of this, employees better be ready to quit when they sense better pastures elsewhere. It was a good read, and a reminder that we are all subservient to the Shareholders (directly or indirectly). The comp…

Yes, and being passionate about your work — such as wanting to work with new developments in your chosen field or changing jobs for an opportunity where you'll be better able to apply your talents to your field of interest — is just a capitalist ploy.

Re: The quitting economy

#28
post #20

tl;dr: Our capitalistic economy, which incentivized the notion of "maximizing shareholder returns," created an environment in which Companies who are efficient in hiring the right amount of disposable assets. Because of this, employees better be ready to quit when they sense better pastures elsewhere. It was a good read, and a reminder that we are all subservient to the Shareholders (directly or indirectly). The comp…

Perhaps we can move on from only caring about the stock price, if we stop providing bonuses/compensation to executives in stock, and also stop making the stock price a benchmark to getting many of those bonuses.

As an [outside] investor in the company, I'm more than happy to vote for compensation packages that are driven by stock price (management wins iff shareholders win). I'm unlikely to vote for a compensation system where management can win big without shareholders gaining.

It's not accidental that the tie between share price and executive comp came into being.

Re: The quitting economy

#29
I'm always ready to quit any position in about 5 seconds.

That is the value and importance of not having debt.

A mortgage is a noose around your neck.

Unless that mortgage is for a rental property that earns more than PITI (principle, interest, taxes, insurance) then you're enslaved.

Make sure your first home is at least a triplex or fourplex. There's nothing like the feeling of knowing you will not be homeless and starve if you quit your job or get fired.

Re: The quitting economy

#30
I really think trying to reason about labour markets using pure theory in a Hayek-Friedman-esque way is a dead end.

It's the 2nd time in two days I made the recommendation, but throwing Ronald Coase into the Neoliberal canon would help a lot. He was a "chicago school" academic from the same intellectual family, so it shouldn't be too much of a culture shock.

He wan't like "progressives" in the "evidence based" sense but he also objected to first principles theory like Friedman. Instead, he tried to find persistent phenomenon and theorized about why they exist.There was always a link to the real world.

Anyway, the pure theory approach leads to a general conclusion/assumption that markets are the same. The market for labour, barbie dolls, whatever.

IRL, labour markets are obviously very different than most other markets. It's inflexible. People stay in jobs a long time and most employers actively try to lower their average turnover. Why?

If flexibility is so wonderfully efficient, why do almost all companies have such a big inflexible workforce? Why is the market for labour so different in practice than the market for oral hygiene products and services.

Why isn't Wall street staffed by day labourers or SV products built by quarterly contractors? You have to look past pure theory to answer these questions. I think you probably have to look beyond economics, or at least to its fringes (like behavioral economics).

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