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Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

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Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#161
post #36

This world is getting so fucked up. We can't crucify people for "hitting on" or other somewhat tame behavior because we have nothing left to throw at the real offenders. Conversely, people benefit on both sides of the equation; using sex to their advantage or weaponizing allegations like this. Sexual assualt is REAL and should be punished. We need to focus on a balance between being human and being a predator. People…

I have been watching this issue for many years online. I have done my best not to comment on it.

But what you've said rings true: there's something really wrong here, and it has to do with the internet.

I've come to the conclusion -- and I may certainly be wrong -- that good policy and good laws depend on a logical and unemotional view of things. As a human being, you can and should acknowledge and feel for people in pain. You should not, however, make decisions based on how you feel about things. And I mean that in the extreme: whether something makes you personally happy or disgusted shouldn't play any role at all in which polices you support or advocate.

The problem is, that's not how the internet or public discourse happens. The internet is all about the feels - the mob, the pain, the sadness, the outrage. Everybody is a publisher and emotion sells eyeballs. There's simply too much attention to be gained by having some outrage-of-the-week. Now that we're all instantly connected, this means that any public discourse that has the potential to manipulate people emotionally will manipulate people emotionally. That's great for publishers, but not so much for trying to have a just society.

The only solution I've come up with is to simply disengage from public conversations about things people get really upset about, which is kinda the default stance on HN. Or at least it used to be. But even that approach is problematic, because the larger your audience, the more topics and subtopics become off-limits.

In this area, how to have a fair, just, and decent society, the internet is not helping things. Just the opposite, in fact.

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#162
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely agree. Rape will land you jail for a long time (as it should) but rape hoaxing has almost no consequences.

Let's suppose that false rape accusations are a wide-spread problem. They aren't, they are far rarer then actual cases of rape, but let's suppose that they are. How exactly do you propose to deal with them, without a chilling effect on reporting real rapes? It is a crime that is notoriously hard to convict, to the point where most victims keep silent.

This is anecdotal, but personally I know just as many people who where raped as where falsely accused of rape.

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#163
post #158
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a terrible idea. It would mean that people would fear to report genuine crimes because they are then harshly punished if the accused is acquitted. The fact is that the justice system is not perfect. Occasionally a guilty person will be acquitted, and it would really be best not to also punish an innocent as a result of that.

The idea seems directly connected with an other idea that is sadly fairly common: assumed guilt. If we assumes that the accused is guilty until proven innocent, then the power imbalance is so great that we need to increase the counter weight by increasing the cost of false accusations. Personally I prefer the old system of innocent until proven guilty. You loose the mob justice, and you can't demand a lower standard…

In Sweden we had a minister of justice a couple of years ago who thought it would be a good idea that persons suspected of buying sexual services (which is illegal in Sweden) got their court order sent in a special large purple envelope. The purpose was that they would then be both publicly shamed (by the mailman, neighbors and what not) as well as would be less able to conceal it from their spouse.

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about using lipstick to emulate sexual arousal? Why did they use make up doing business?

Mostly because women often get pulled into meetings with their bosses/HR and told to wear makeup if they don't. Seriously. Even if they don't, they get accused by work colleagues of not looking good enough, and clients comment on it. This isn't something women do to be manipulative - it's something that's enforced as part of a woman's dress code by the company. Or, in other words, if you think makeup is intended to r…

From what I have read, tools to improve ones appearance (makeup, manicures, trendy clothes) is primarily about social status and inter-sex pecking order. Men do the same thing, but instead of makeup it is different signal of having wealth (clocks, gadgets, cars).

I recall reading that if a woman has no other female coworkers, the trend is a decrease use of such signals. With no one to compete with then there is no need to spend energy on it.

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#165
post #8

Incidents like this and that Rolling Stone article do so much damage to real victims of sexual harassment/assault.

Why would it do damage to real victims? This is a common refrain and is a great way to get internet points but I don't understand it. Is it because we are less likely to believe victims at their word? That's the way it should be.

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#166
post #163
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea seems directly connected with an other idea that is sadly fairly common: assumed guilt. If we assumes that the accused is guilty until proven innocent, then the power imbalance is so great that we need to increase the counter weight by increasing the cost of false accusations. Personally I prefer the old system of innocent until proven guilty. You loose the mob justice, and you can't demand a lower standard…

In Sweden we had a minister of justice a couple of years ago who thought it would be a good idea that persons suspected of buying sexual services (which is illegal in Sweden) got their court order sent in a special large purple envelope. The purpose was that they would then be both publicly shamed (by the mailman, neighbors and what not) as well as would be less able to conceal it from their spouse.

Kind of like your voting system?

I hear it has effectively no privacy.

See for example https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&ar...

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#167
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False accusations should be punished with the same penalty as the accuser tried to put upon the innocent. Until that happens, people will see no reason to stop false accusations that they think will help them.

That's a terrible idea. It would mean that people would fear to report genuine crimes because they are then harshly punished if the accused is acquitted. The fact is that the justice system is not perfect. Occasionally a guilty person will be acquitted, and it would really be best not to also punish an innocent as a result of that.

If you apply the "innocent until proven guilty" principle, it's not a bad idea. It should be proven that the accuser lied to get condemned. I would expect this to happen not that often - basically never when it's just "my word against your word" - but it would create a big risk for those who are rationally plotting to launch a false accuse - in the unlikely but possible case that evidence is found that they willfully lied, eg if there was a witness they didn't know about, if there was a recording of what happened, etc.

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the genders were reversed then that would be sexual harassment...

This is actually an interesting legal problem. How would two * willing * co-workers initiate casual sex on a business trip? Certainly this situation has cropped up before! Neither would want to risk their careers on making an unwanted advance toward the other! Presenting a coworker with a long legal document giving consent to be propositioned, signed with a notary present of course, wouldn't work. It would be sexual…

> The next billion dollar startup idea?! A cross between Linkedin, LegalZoom and Tinder.

Well, there has been this Slack app[0].

[0] https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/05/slack...

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#169

The problem with this whole debate that follows stories about sexual harassment is that no matter how it is being sliced, it always leads to a skewed image of reality. The reality, in my eyes, would be something like this: - People walk around looking more or less intelligently, but almost all have primal sexual urges that they are frequently seeking or at least thinking about to fulfill. That applies to women and me…

How about instead we just agree not to hit on each other within a power-imbalanced professional relationship? Seriously, I don't get how this is hard for folks. It's unbelievably simple. Be aware that you may have professional power over other people, and if you do, make an active effort not to flirt with them. Have the self-restraint not to mix an investment/supervisory relationship with romance or sex. Either it wi…

Thanks, I'll be sure tell my parents (mom used to be dad's secretary) that their 35y relationship will end in failure.

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False accusations should be punished with the same penalty as the accuser tried to put upon the innocent. Until that happens, people will see no reason to stop false accusations that they think will help them.

This has the side-effect that real victims are put off from filing charges, which is generally thought to be not a good thing.

False accusations are the ones proven to be false; and not every single one that couldn't be confirmed by court or by a jury.
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