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Show HN: Dharma – Programmable Peer-To-Peer Loans Using Ethereum Smart Contracts

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31–40 of 65 posts

Re: Show HN: Dharma – Programmable Peer-To-Peer Loans Using Ethereum Smart Contracts

#31
post #15

I know this is off topic, but why the heck is it called Dharma? Just a cool sounding eastern word? It's like calling something 'The Gospel' or 'The New Testament' or the 'Quran Protocol'. I get that it's hip for westerners to yank Buddhist words, but this one really pushes my East Asian buttons. It doesn't even semantically make sense--in fact, it's a total antonym in many ways.

Originally, "dharma" just meant "thing/object". More abstract (and derived therefrom) is a bifurcation into "true thing, real thing, truth, etc.." and on the other end of the spectrum "object, mental object, thought". Think of Carolus Linnaeus and not so much religion.

I understand the historical origin (though claiming it has a single original meaning is an extremely strong position), but the common understanding for Buddhists refers to the teachings of the Buddha and the eightfold path, which is very much a religious term. I generally don't mind people taking things from religion in the punk rock sense, but I guess I just don't get this one.

Re: Show HN: Dharma – Programmable Peer-To-Peer Loans Using Ethereum Smart Contracts

#32
post #15

I know this is off topic, but why the heck is it called Dharma? Just a cool sounding eastern word? It's like calling something 'The Gospel' or 'The New Testament' or the 'Quran Protocol'. I get that it's hip for westerners to yank Buddhist words, but this one really pushes my East Asian buttons. It doesn't even semantically make sense--in fact, it's a total antonym in many ways.

Originally, "dharma" just meant "thing/object". More abstract (and derived therefrom) is a bifurcation into "true thing, real thing, truth, etc.." and on the other end of the spectrum "object, mental object, thought". Think of Carolus Linnaeus and not so much religion.

The word seems to be used in both contexts in the Buddhist Pali canon, at least from what I can tell.

Re: Show HN: Dharma – Programmable Peer-To-Peer Loans Using Ethereum Smart Contracts

#33
post #15

I know this is off topic, but why the heck is it called Dharma? Just a cool sounding eastern word? It's like calling something 'The Gospel' or 'The New Testament' or the 'Quran Protocol'. I get that it's hip for westerners to yank Buddhist words, but this one really pushes my East Asian buttons. It doesn't even semantically make sense--in fact, it's a total antonym in many ways.

> It's like calling something 'The Gospel' or 'The New Testament' or the 'Quran Protocol'. Yeah, I don't think that is true, at all. Dharma is a concept and you've listed books (or close enough to books). According to Wikipedia, > In certain contexts, dharma designates human behaviours considered necessary for order of things in the universe, principles that prevent chaos, behaviours and action necessary to all life…

I can see all of your points, and they're valid, but...

> Yeah, I don't think that is true, at all. Dharma is a concept and you've listed books (or close enough to books).

When someone labels something as cultural appropriation is not a matter of whether it is a true label or not, what matters is that some number of people from that culture consider it to be cultural appropriation. If they do, then it's a problem and the project owners need to decide if they'll change the name or not.

At the beginning of the project, there's no large cost to changing the name, so I'd change it if it was my project.

That said, coming up with names is hard. I've been told I'm good at it. Not sure if that's true, but here are three alternatives: Lifeline, EthereaL, Enablr, Xtension. The Dharma project owners may use any of these names to rename their project for free in perpetuity, if they wish. Post here if you do though, because otherwise I have ideas for several of them (not ethereum loans, or even loans).

Re: Show HN: Dharma – Programmable Peer-To-Peer Loans Using Ethereum Smart Contracts

#34
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This project is simultaneously a great example of the democratizing effect of Ethereum while also being truly terrifying. A Stanford '17 grad with a few internships worth of industry experience is able to create and deploy a peer-to-peer loan infrastructure. This isn't meant to be demeaning in any way, I'm just remarking on how incredible of an accomplishment it is for both you and Ethereum that the previous sentence…

I think the problems you're alluding to are problems with the blockchain ecosystem in general, and I don't purport to have a silver bullet to solve the inherent issues with immutable software deployments, particularly in financial applications. But, after all, a dark horse 20 year old college dropout spearheaded the development of Ethereum, and the technology now secures nearly 20B worth of value. Maybe it's impossib…

No need to forgive. You're not wrong nor naive. I'd pin the difference as one of personal risk tolerances. I have much less than you, that's all. Right now Solidity is the only choice of public smart contracts. All I meant before was that this is an impressive project and to be careful.

> But, after all, a dark horse 20 year old college dropout spearheaded the development of Ethereum, and the technology now secures nearly 20B worth of value.

This is a really common trope in finance -- the trader/quant/manager/pm who thinks that he's god's gift to earth because he made so much money (and a system that made even more). I'm not saying that's what's going on in Ethereum, far from it, just that people who make a lot of money tend to think they are worth that amount of money (usually they are just fortunate) and that using monetary value as the sole justification for one's actions is (generally) wrong.

While I disagree that Eth is actually valued at $20B -- if you can't get even a fraction of the $20B out of the market then it's not worth $20B in value... I bet the buy side of the Eth market supports around $100M-$300M max -- that's neither here nor there.

The Ethereum ecosystem is, invariant on the value it represents, truly impressive and Vitalik's work is amazing especially given his experience level prior to it. I wouldn't say that the EVM is well designed in the slightest but the rest of the system is. It's closer to a 80's era CPU than a modern VM. I get why it looks like it does -- taking the bitcoin bytecode and extending it as little as needed -- but I disagree with the approach at a technical level. VM's are supposed to do more (e.g. handle dispatch and library loading) and to not support that means one must implement it in the language (like an ASM compiler does) which in a blockchain context consumes the limited gas you have.

> I hold an optimistic view that, as formal verification techniques for smart contracts get fleshed out and easier to use

100% Agreed, though I don't think Solidity will have it anytime soon (3-5 year min for whole program verification that experts can use, I know some of the people working on it). The path the solidity FV people are following is a long, hard research path (close to what they did for the seL4 microkernel). Moreover, I know a ton about this because I built the first whole program formal verification system (compiler + DSL) for any smart contract language[1].

I built it for Pact, the language we[2] built to address the problems we saw with Ethereum's approach in enterprise contexts, that's FOSS but currently only available for on-chain use on our private platform. It wholly fixes the "immutable code" problem[3] via cryptocharters -- think of them as a module (smart contract) that have native support for both decentralized and centralized governance mechanisms for updating contracts and migrating the data they store. There's a bunch more stuff that Pact gets right, but that's what the papers are for describing.

Keep in mind that formal verification isn't the "end all be all" for program safety. While it massively advances the state of the art in that regard you need more than just FV because FV still requires human effort (just vastly less/safer than regular/auditing testing). It's just that FV is SO damn rare that most people, including myself until last year, (a) have no idea what it looks like and (b) have no idea what to use it for. People seem to think that an FV-capable language will solve all of their problems. No, it won't.

How many people going to become experts in SMT/Coq/Isabell just to write a safe smart contract? They, but Coq especially, make Haskell (which already scares people off) look like a cuddly puppy. What we'll need is a smart contract language that was designed to empower people to write safe code from the start + an FV system + a FV DSL that regular devs can use to leverage FV's power without having to become an expert in it. This is, unsurprisingly, exactly the feature set we have built for Pact. If you think I missed/should add a feature for empowering safe contracts I'm all ears (seriously, criticism/ideas are always welcome).

Wait a couple weeks and we'll have the public chain whitepaper(s) out (we're still refining the wording).

[1]: https://youtu.be/Nw1glriQYP8?t=1072 -- my co-founder is presenting it

[2]: http://kadena.io

[3]: "immutable code" gets you laughed out of the room in industry

Edit: this came out when I was writing the response... are you planning to sell tokens in the system? If so, again, be careful.

"SEC Issues Investigative Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities" https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2017-131

Re: Show HN: Dharma – Programmable Peer-To-Peer Loans Using Ethereum Smart Contracts

#35
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Credit-risk assessment is indeed the most brittle aspect of what I'm building. In short -- borrowers have to get a cryptographically signed attestation from what's called a Risk Assessment Attestor in order to request a loan in Dharma. RAAs use whatever means they have to assess a borrower's identity and creditworthiness -- be that through social media logins, uploaded identification documents, authenticated phone nu…

Risk assessment is literally the entire product is it not? Loans are not a technical problem to solve, and there's no inherent usefulness in it being a smart contract. A guy in a office is not a risk assessment strategy.

Not necessarily. I think a great example of something that smart contracts enable in a lending scheme is built-in secondary market functionality. A lot of marketplace lending platforms have built in proprietary secondary markets, but none of them are anywhere near as liquid as crypto markets are in general, and the vast majority are not interoperable, to my knowledge.

Your ownership in a loan on Dharma is denominated by a cryptographic token like Bitcoin, Ether, or any other, meaning its just as easy to trade your stake in a loan as it is to trade a cryptocurrency.

Assets built on open protocols are fundamentally easier to build products and technologies around -- insofar as they lower the barrier to entry for developing financial applications, their openness is extremely valuable.

Re: Show HN: Dharma – Programmable Peer-To-Peer Loans Using Ethereum Smart Contracts

#36
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's https://ethlance.com . I don't know how much activity it has, but I do know it will be part of a family of marketplaces called District0x [1], which should help it with adoption. [1] https://blog.district0x.io/introducing-the-district0x-networ...

I was thinking any coin. With all the ICOs there seems like a lot work that needs done and a lot of coins to burn.

Almost all the token sales are being done on Ethereum so they'll probably be paying in ETH. I imagine Ethlance is working on integrating ERC20 payments, so you can get paid in tokens as well.

Re: Show HN: Dharma – Programmable Peer-To-Peer Loans Using Ethereum Smart Contracts

#37
I would love to see the loan be able to (or better yet, enforced that it is) used as a funding source in a smart contract. Provide an API for funneling revenue in the client contract to the loan object thus ensuring repayment. Making the release of the funds contingent on an audit ensuring the repayment is handled autonomously. Sort of interesting though.

Re: Show HN: Dharma – Programmable Peer-To-Peer Loans Using Ethereum Smart Contracts

#38
post #15

I know this is off topic, but why the heck is it called Dharma? Just a cool sounding eastern word? It's like calling something 'The Gospel' or 'The New Testament' or the 'Quran Protocol'. I get that it's hip for westerners to yank Buddhist words, but this one really pushes my East Asian buttons. It doesn't even semantically make sense--in fact, it's a total antonym in many ways.

I completely understand the feeling, but you're asking this on a site that uses the word 'karma' for internet points. That ship has sailed, the battle is lost, language just morphs in ways we don't like. Probably it always has.

Re: Show HN: Dharma – Programmable Peer-To-Peer Loans Using Ethereum Smart Contracts

#40
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problems you're alluding to are problems with the blockchain ecosystem in general, and I don't purport to have a silver bullet to solve the inherent issues with immutable software deployments, particularly in financial applications. But, after all, a dark horse 20 year old college dropout spearheaded the development of Ethereum, and the technology now secures nearly 20B worth of value. Maybe it's impossib…

No need to forgive. You're not wrong nor naive. I'd pin the difference as one of personal risk tolerances. I have much less than you, that's all. Right now Solidity is the only choice of public smart contracts. All I meant before was that this is an impressive project and to be careful. > But, after all, a dark horse 20 year old college dropout spearheaded the development of Ethereum, and the technology now secures n…

Re: FV -- I admittedly have a surface level understanding of the entire subject matter. If you have any good primers and / or resources, I'd love to hear them.

re: Pact -- sounds super cool. I look forward to reading the white paper. Would be happy to scan the drafts if you'd be interested in sharing too

re: SEC -- just saw that too. I wouldn't say I totally disagree with the decision -- by Howie test standards, a governance token like DAO is functionally a security. Whether that jurisprudence will extend to grayer-area app coins and such is the real question.

At the moment, not planning on a token sale. Largely because of the concerns you've alluded to.

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