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Elon Musk says Mark Zuckerberg's understanding of AI is 'limited'

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Re: Elon Musk says Mark Zuckerberg's understanding of AI is 'limited'

#61

Post by gmarx »

WhatIsDukkha wrote: post #51
gonehome wrote: post #26

They're talking past each other because "AI" has become a useless term. Musk's comments are about a potential (maybe conscious) artificial super intelligence and the risks that could come from that if we enable one somehow without understanding the preconditions. Zuckerberg is just talking about "AI" in the sense that machine learning can solve a valuable class of problems. The super intelligence risk could be seriou…

It's not useless as a term but AI has become a catchall for anxiety about the future. I'll add another set of concerns you see in these discussions. People know that the current version of predatory Capitalism we've created so far would happily mass unemploy everyone (possibly all the white collar workers reading this much sooner then you think). This would leave no workers and no consumers with money outside of the…

I'll add another concern which is already occurring (the thing I'm concerned about, not the concern, although I guess the concern is already occurring)

AI is being used as a workaround to existing anti-discrimination laws. The core of anti-discrimination law is that it doesn't matter if you think on the average my group of people is a worse credit risk or more likely to rob your taxi or more likely to trash your rental property; you need to judge me by the risk of the general population.

AI allows you to create a black box which will inevitably find proxies for race and spit out a higher risk for some races than others. Race won't directly appear in the model but what does will be strongly correlated with race.

Re: Elon Musk says Mark Zuckerberg's understanding of AI is 'limited'

#62

Post by gonehome »

euyyn wrote: post #40
gonehome wrote: post #26

They're talking past each other because "AI" has become a useless term. Musk's comments are about a potential (maybe conscious) artificial super intelligence and the risks that could come from that if we enable one somehow without understanding the preconditions. Zuckerberg is just talking about "AI" in the sense that machine learning can solve a valuable class of problems. The super intelligence risk could be seriou…

But how can one think that Mark's understanding of "sci-fi AI" is limited? We're so far from any of it that at this point it's all speculation about what could or could not happen. If I have a theory that humans will evolve into separate species, I can't say someone else's understanding on the matter is limited.

Limited in a sense that he's saying Musk is being irresponsible and then talking about the simpler machine learning problems that can be solved [1] when Musk's warning is really about the super intelligence piece.

The main problem is the term AI is overloaded and overused so it creates confusion.

Musk is not against the machine learning approach to solving a new class of useful problems (though replacing a lot of current human jobs and the political risk associated with that is an issue to think about)

[1] http://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/24/mark-zuckerberg-elon-musks-do...

Re: Elon Musk says Mark Zuckerberg's understanding of AI is 'limited'

#63

Post by hourislate »

hndamien wrote: post #14

Wow. Mark used an example of self-driving cars being good for humanity as his example of why AI will pose no danger; to make a point about his perspective in a feud with the guy that is leading self-driving car revolution pointing out that AI could potentially be dangerous. I hold great concerns for Facebook's future.

Lets hope farcebook has no future....

Re: Elon Musk says Mark Zuckerberg's understanding of AI is 'limited'

#64

Post by hospes »

__s wrote: post #17

Seems this pivots on a disagreement of AI as a risk Musk seems very anxious of existential threats-- it isn't surprising he may overestimate the danger of AI It also comes off as very monkey-centric. Is it so bad if human intelligence isn't what proliferates the future? Perhaps AI is a kind of memetic evolution for our culture, evolving into a form of life which can achieve sustenance with much less waste

>> It also comes off as very monkey-centric. Is it so bad if human intelligence isn't what proliferates the future? >> Perhaps AI is a kind of memetic evolution for our culture, evolving into a form of life which can achieve sustenance with much less waste

Is that what humanity should strive for? Create form of Intelligence that can sustain itself with less waste?

Calling someone who is trying to create better future for his 5 kids "monkey-centric" is pretty offensive. I wish there were more "monkey-centric" people out there.

Re: Elon Musk says Mark Zuckerberg's understanding of AI is 'limited'

#66

Post by 6d6b73 »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #55
6d6b73 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Turning on an AI or copying the code for one and spreading it would probably be easiear. What people never mention in any discussion with AI is that the AI will be as limited by physical world as we are. AI It's not just code, it's also the hardware that will run the code. That hardware has theoretical and practical limits, and requires a lot of power. It's not like AI running on some peta/exascale supercomputer wil…

It's not like AI running on some peta/exascale supercomputer will be able to jump to your laptop and take it over and spread itself to every electronic device in the world That's exactly a proposed scenario - with the form of "jumping" being any kind of communication. See: The AI Box problem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_box

If the AI requires a supercomputer to "exists" it can only jump to another supercomputer. It will not be able to spread to your Arduino.

Re: Elon Musk says Mark Zuckerberg's understanding of AI is 'limited'

#68

Post by rspeer »

danso wrote: post #50

As overloaded as the term "AI" has become, to the point where mainstream discussion is unlikely to be substantative, I'm glad a tech-business leader like Elon Musk is at least taking a public position of some skepticism. AI can be as empowering or as dangerous as we design and constrain it -- but to a layperson, AI and "algorithms" seem like inevitable magic, in the way that iPhones have steadily "improved" in hardwa…

Musk's view of AI relies on AI being magic, too. He's using the definition of "AI" that exists only in hyped-up promises about the future, and evaporates when applied to present technology.

Musk dismisses AI experts who tell him that his claims bear no resemblance to real technology, because Musk isn't talking about the same AI as them. He's talking about sci-fi AI.

There are no experts in sci-fi AI because, if there were anything there that one could understand well enough to be an expert in it, it wouldn't be sci-fi AI anymore.

Re: Elon Musk says Mark Zuckerberg's understanding of AI is 'limited'

#69

Post by JCzynski »

euyyn wrote: post #40
gonehome wrote: post #26

They're talking past each other because "AI" has become a useless term. Musk's comments are about a potential (maybe conscious) artificial super intelligence and the risks that could come from that if we enable one somehow without understanding the preconditions. Zuckerberg is just talking about "AI" in the sense that machine learning can solve a valuable class of problems. The super intelligence risk could be seriou…

But how can one think that Mark's understanding of "sci-fi AI" is limited? We're so far from any of it that at this point it's all speculation about what could or could not happen. If I have a theory that humans will evolve into separate species, I can't say someone else's understanding on the matter is limited.

Surveys of the field consistently show a majority expecting less than a century, and people focused on the problem less than 50.

Re: Elon Musk says Mark Zuckerberg's understanding of AI is 'limited'

#70

Post by gonehome »

6d6b73 wrote: post #38
gonehome wrote: post #26

They're talking past each other because "AI" has become a useless term. Musk's comments are about a potential (maybe conscious) artificial super intelligence and the risks that could come from that if we enable one somehow without understanding the preconditions. Zuckerberg is just talking about "AI" in the sense that machine learning can solve a valuable class of problems. The super intelligence risk could be seriou…

>Turning on an AI or copying the code for one and spreading it would probably be easiear. What people never mention in any discussion with AI is that the AI will be as limited by physical world as we are. AI It's not just code, it's also the hardware that will run the code. That hardware has theoretical and practical limits, and requires a lot of power. It's not like AI running on some peta/exascale supercomputer wil…

I think the main argument against this is once you're in the world of "super intelligence" you're severely outmatched. If for some reason it had an interest in staying on it might not be easy to stop.
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