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Cafeteria workers at Facebook struggle to make ends meet

theguardian.com

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Re: Cafeteria workers at Facebook struggle to make ends meet

#511

Post by 5thaccount »

bsimpson wrote: post #412
jazzyk wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The lawsuit did a lot of damage in both directions. It's not clear who benefitted other than the attorneys. That lawsuit single-handedly created an additional layer of intermediaries (whole industry, really), which eats up ~30% of consulting revenue and provides close to zero value.

At the large company I contracted for, I negotiated my rate directly with the company. Then, they had their vendor manager hire me, and agreed to pay them my rate + their markup as an hourly wage for my services. I worked directly for the large company, but was an employee of a vendor whose sole purpose was to manage that company's contractors. It was quite bizarre.

Think how much regulatory red tape there must be for that to be a better way to do things! There is the point at which laws designed to protect people end up hurting them. The Seattle minimum wage experiment is a good example: http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2017/06/sea... (https://evans.uw.edu/sites/default/files/NBER%20Working%20Pa...)

> – The numbers of hours worked by low-wage workers fell by 3.5 million hours per quarter. This was reflected both in thousands of job losses and reductions in hours worked by those who retained their jobs. > > – The losses were so dramatic that this increase “reduced income paid to low-wage employees of single-location Seattle businesses by roughly $120 million on an annual basis.” On average, low-wage workers lost $125 per month. The minimum wage has always been a lousy income transfer program, but at this level you’d come out ahead just setting a hundred million dollars a year on fire. And that’s before we get into who kept vs lost their jobs.

When laws with one goal achieve the exact opposite, we need to rethink the laws. Unfortunately, pyrrhic victories are rather common in politics.

Re: Cafeteria workers at Facebook struggle to make ends meet

#512

Post by patio11 »

tptacek wrote: post #492
nbclark wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was at Microsoft years ago and there was a transition away from providing similar perks to contractors due to a lawsuit. https://www.reuters.com/article/businesspropicks-us-findlaw-...

Microsoft got burned badly on misclassification, but amenities had nothing to do with it: their contractors effectively were employees, with no material difference between FTEs and contractors in terms of how was work delivered and what expectations were. (I've done a very little bit of contracting work for MSFT, FWIW). I'm not surprised if MSFT overcorrected after that shitstorm. But for what it's worth, my understa…

For more background on this (dating back to the halycon years of 1986), see 'grellas's comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1137930

Though the notion that an IRS reclassification caused an employment practices lawsuit demanding access to e.g. retirement benefits for a reclassified independent contractor is a bit amusing, if terrifying when considered from an employer's perspective.

Re: Cafeteria workers at Facebook struggle to make ends meet

#513

Post by Aloha »

godelski wrote: post #469
Aloha wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moving costs money. If you're scraping by as tightly as they are - how would one expect them to afford to move? You need money to rent a u-haul to haul your stuff, some cash to rent an apartment, and then enough cash to provide a runway to find a job (which in a service industry role shouldn't take more than 6-8 weeks) - that still adds up to about 10k to relocate to a cheaper part of the country.

Having moved across the country a few years back for my job, the idea that it costs near $10k is ridiculous. I didn't even have half that to my name when I moved. Checking U-Haul, you can geta 15' for 10 days and go from SF to NYC for under 3k. And you're probably going to be going half that distance and in less time. So let's say you go more central. Estimate U-Haul at 2k, gas at 1k, rent of new place as $500/mo (so…

Uhaul 2-3000k Hotel during moving 80/night * 6 days = 480 fuel for other vehicle on trip (presumes two cars, and uhaul can haul one) = 350 food on trip = 720 dollars (assuming 40/meal (assumes $8/pp) and you eat fast food) 3 nights of hotel upon arrival = 300 (more expensive in city.) 2 months of food on arrival for a family of 5 for two months, assuming you can cook at home 5 (head) * 3 (meals) * 4 (dollars per person) * 60 (days) = 3600 dollars. apartment 800 (first month) +800 (security) +800 (last month) +800 (second month) +200 (key fee, background check) = 3400 Starting up utilities (power/internet) = 300 Cell Phone 100

Total: 11250

Now this is my worst case for a family of 5 - in all likelihood, move in costs could be lower, food on the road might be cheaper, and food at home could be much cheaper - but the 10k number was picked because you need an emergency cushion - my original back of the napkin (literal) showed about 8500 dollars, which would leave you more cushion for the unexpected.

So while I agree with you.. that I could move cross country for 5k - I don't think I could move a family of 5 cross country for 5k.

Re: Cafeteria workers at Facebook struggle to make ends meet

#514

Post by Aloha »

turc1656 wrote: post #474
Aloha wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly who then is supposed to do the service industry work for the bay area? Two hours from Palo Alto gets you nowhere - because its not any more affordable two hours away by car - there two hours on public transit wouldn't even get you out of the Bay Area proper. 50 years ago, it was common that the employees in the cafeteria (janitors too) were actually employees of the company who's building they worked for - wh…

While I'm not familiar with the area, a very quick search produced a rental available across the water in Fremont, apparently only ~30 minutes by car. The rental is $2,319 a month and has 3 beds and 2 baths and a total of 1,100 sqft of living space. Sounds extremely reasonable, all things considered.

Their combined pretax income is like 74k - that means their take home is probably closer to 58k - a 2300 dollar apartment is a stretch on 8k - it would be a stretch for me and I make considerably more.

Also the distance makes childcare more complex too.

Also, I'd look at the average price you're seeing too - not the one or two outliers.

Re: Cafeteria workers at Facebook struggle to make ends meet

#515

Post by golemotron »

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #53

Everybody here is focusing on real estate. (because young wealthy programmers and older poorer workers have a shared interest in cheap real estate) But I'm really interested in how HN feels about this section: “I felt more secure at my other job. You didn’t have people looking down at you,” Nicole said. Now she works at cafeterias with names like “Epic” and “Living the Dream”, and the distance between the two classes…

When I'm most cynical I believe that the tech community's preoccupation with diversity is to avoid thinking about social class and lack of social mobility.

It's understandable. We're culpable to some degree and that doesn't feel good.

Re: Cafeteria workers at Facebook struggle to make ends meet

#517

Post by godelski »

Aloha wrote: post #513
godelski wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having moved across the country a few years back for my job, the idea that it costs near $10k is ridiculous. I didn't even have half that to my name when I moved. Checking U-Haul, you can geta 15' for 10 days and go from SF to NYC for under 3k. And you're probably going to be going half that distance and in less time. So let's say you go more central. Estimate U-Haul at 2k, gas at 1k, rent of new place as $500/mo (so…

Uhaul 2-3000k Hotel during moving 80/night * 6 days = 480 fuel for other vehicle on trip (presumes two cars, and uhaul can haul one) = 350 food on trip = 720 dollars (assuming 40/meal (assumes $8/pp) and you eat fast food) 3 nights of hotel upon arrival = 300 (more expensive in city.) 2 months of food on arrival for a family of 5 for two months, assuming you can cook at home 5 (head) * 3 (meals) * 4 (dollars per pers…

I totally disagree with your numbers. $800 is a lot for rent. We're assuming we're going somewhere cheap. Even that $500 is high if you're moving to the middle of the country. You can find a 2 or 3 bedroom rental at $500 in even "bigger" cities like Oklahoma City or Albuquerque. That's a huge upgrade from a garage. Utilities are going to be nowhere near that. You're also inflating numbers. Like where does this 2 months of food come from? Where are you getting the second month? Who does this? It is first and last (which is your security deposit). Utils are going to be So for 5 people, on the cheap (because come on, they are living in a garage, we're just looking for an upgrade, not middle class status on arrival). So let's do an even more refined analysis from what I did before.

Uhaul = 2-3k with fuel (we aren't doing the 10 days Uhaul estimated. NYC to SF is 44hrs driving). You tow your car, but I'm guessing they don't have one, let alone two. $5/person/meal for lunch and dinner (breakfast at motel or you skip). That's $150 for 3 days (we're on the road ALL day). Motel at $40/night (two nights). You also have a uhaul... (you can trade off driving through the night too...) First and last month is $900 (we're doing 2bd 1ba in not the greatest neighborhood but not out in the boonies. The kids have a room). Utils are $150 for turning on and first month. You buy a cheap cell phone or a prepaid, $100 for two phones (you and wife). You probably already have this, but hey I'm adding a little wiggle room. Nothing about this is glamarous, but that's not what I'm trying to illustrate here. This comes to $3,380-$4,380. Clearly we can do even cheaper. These numbers probably seem low to you because you've never had to do this or never lived in these places.

5k would give you wiggle room, and honestly we're not concerned about that. We're looking bare minimum. Most people don't even have $500 in their savings, so unfortunately we're not going to presume that our imaginary family of 5 does. We can definitely argue over this number but I'll say CAN is in the range 5k+-1k for a good portion of the country.

So CAN we move a family of 5 across the country? Yes. Is it going to be easy? No. Is it going to be comfortable? No. Are you going to live in the greatest area? No. Are you going to have an easier time saving money once you move? Yes (on the condition that you did your research. Even a "pay decrease" can be a "raise"). Is it going to be better than a family of 5 in a garage? Hell yeah.

Re: Cafeteria workers at Facebook struggle to make ends meet

#518

Post by derekdahmer »

perfectstorm wrote: post #475

I grew up in India and both my parents worked for a Central government company. Their company has quarters (apartment complexes) which were heavily subsidized. The employee could own one individual apartment or pay subsidized monthly rent. The company (central govt. in this case) offer loans for their employees at a lower than market rate to own this apartment. I like that approach. Since both my parents were working…

Facebook actually is trying to [build their own housing](https://sf.curbed.com/2016/7/27/12299438/facebook-housing-de...) now.

Ultimately though its a failure of Menlo Park that it hasn't allowed enough housing units to support the number of office units its allowed to be built.

Re: Cafeteria workers at Facebook struggle to make ends meet

#519

Post by mc32 »

cr0sh wrote: post #437
mc32 wrote: post #163

One way to minimize the cost of living impact is to set up satellite offices. Set up a campus in Texas or Oklahoma. It's not like people would not take jobs there. I'm sure some globe trotters would not, but most jobs don't need the globe trotter kind of mentality.

At one time, Google had such an office here in the Phoenix area (I think it actually located in Tempe or Chandler); they closed it after a few years ostensibly because they couldn't find enough workers who met their standards. So maybe it's a chicken/egg problem; they'd love to set up such offices, but they can't find the workers they need. The workers they need are all in California or some other similar, more liber…

They are not unable to find people to staff their DCs and their DCs are typically in small cities (though not all). So it's not that.

I'm sure they could find talent in BOS for example, but they don't have major offices there (as opposed to LAX, & LON, for example).

Re: Cafeteria workers at Facebook struggle to make ends meet

#520

Post by mc32 »

kjksf wrote: post #467
tptacek wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why doesn't this happen more often?

Because the more you treat contractors as employees (including giving them the same benefits), the more likely it is that they'll sue you claiming they really are full-time employees and therefore deserve more. Exactly that happened to Microsoft ( https://www.reuters.com/article/businesspropicks-us-findlaw-... ). Microsoft lost and, as part of preventing such lawsuits in the future, they limited things that are avail…

Exactly --the whole Microsoft lawsuit in the early 2000s? Contractors were being treated too nicely such they legally could look like employees.

Also, food can be considered part of compensation for tax purposes --which is why some companies only allow x-number of per-employee "guests" per month.

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