Cafeteria workers at Facebook struggle to make ends meet • Hacker News Board

Re: Cafeteria workers at Facebook struggle to make ends meet

#111

Post by pcnonpc » Mon, Jul 24, 2017, 4:14 PM UTC

tmh79 wrote: post #46

The real story here is how the political conditions of the SFBA have prevented growth of the housing supply. The sad reality is that housing here is now a zero sum game, and any broad based increase in wages would pretty quickly be captured by landlords. The real solution to this issue is not higher wages, but targeted efforts to decrease the cost of living through building a ton of of "missing middle" housing like 4…

When tech companies pay out billions and billions more per year in salary which end up in rent or mortgage, we should question why they don't decide to move partly or expand largely elsewhere and save those billions. They must know that a lot of talents will follow them to whichever city that has reasonable living conditions.

My suspicion is that the system serves as a golden handcuff. The elite tech workers feel like they are getting paid a lot more, which they are, but they still cannot retire or pay off mortgage easily. So they need to continue to work diligently at the company for a long time.

This reduces turnover and keeps experienced workers happy and handcuffed.

Downvoters:

Please give your reason why you think the theory is likely wrong. There are many nice, much cheaper areas that these companies can expand to. Many groups can function without always connecting with the headquarters.

Re: Cafeteria workers at Facebook struggle to make ends meet

#112

Post by humanrebar » Mon, Jul 24, 2017, 4:14 PM UTC

dsr_ wrote: post #57

henraldp wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should minimum wage jobs pay well enough to raise a family in Palo Alto?

Yes. The minimum wage in Palo Alto must support a family in Palo Alto, or within a very reasonable commute.

I agree employers should pay that much, ethically and morally. I don't think legally they should be forced to pay that much.

Re: Cafeteria workers at Facebook struggle to make ends meet

#113

Post by manigandham » Mon, Jul 24, 2017, 4:15 PM UTC

FussyZeus wrote: post #108

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people are pondering outside of that claim because young programmers in Palo Alto also want cheap real estate so there's a shared interest. But things this article brings up that are more uncomfortable for the members of this board to think about like paying service workers more or pondering this: “They look at us like we’re lower, like we don’t matter,” said Nicole of the Facebook employees. “We don’t live t…

At some point we have to recognize that service workers must be paid a living wage, or be automated. We cannot, morally or economically, have an entire class of worker that we utterly depend on that lives permanently below the poverty line and we just step on them because "they didn't work hard in school" or whichever narrative you prefer to go with for why people who don't have a degree do work that is essential to…

> or be automated

That's an extreme opposite from living wage.

Re: Cafeteria workers at Facebook struggle to make ends meet

#114

Post by DannyBee » Mon, Jul 24, 2017, 4:16 PM UTC

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #92

ocschwar wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re-read the comment. There's a lot of truth to it: raise their wages, and in a heartbeat, those workers will see their rents rise.

>There's a lot of truth to it: raise their wages, and in a heartbeat, those workers will see their rents rise. This offers a brilliant solution, just in the other direction. Let's lower the wages of programmers in the area. As their wages decrease the price of real estate will go down!

It sounds like you think you are being sarcastic, but this is actually what will happen.

See: Any area where this has occurred due to plant closings, etc.

Re: Cafeteria workers at Facebook struggle to make ends meet

#115

Post by Johnny555 » Mon, Jul 24, 2017, 4:19 PM UTC

gmarx wrote: post #39

It is terrible that he can't live in Menlo Park on 75K. On the other hand the reason he lives in a garage is because he and is family are living with his parents, most likely to save money and avoid the horrendous commute most of his coworkers probably face. On yet a third hand I can't feel all that bad for this guy since he someday stands to inherit a house worth millions of dollars

On yet a third hand I can't feel all that bad for this guy since he someday stands to inherit a house worth millions of dollars.

He's 29 years old, so his parents could be in their 50's. So living in a garage and then inheriting a million dollar house 20 years from now after his kids are grown and out of the house (well, garage) doesn't sound like much to be happy about.

Re: Cafeteria workers at Facebook struggle to make ends meet

#116

Post by tyingq » Mon, Jul 24, 2017, 4:20 PM UTC

thrownblown wrote: post #75

tyingq wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The workers are employed by Flagship Facility Services. I assume it's fairly common to contract out the operation of your cafeteria, versus managing that in-house. Their wages are mentioned in the article...$19.85/hr and $17.85/hr. It that unusually low for someone working at, say, a table-service chain restaurant in the same area? Edit: Comparison to tipped workers seems apples/oranges. More curious if ~$18/hr is un…

Actually, yes. California doesn't allow tipped restaurant servers to be paid less than minimum wage like many other states. PA minimum wage is $15(10-12 take home), and you can expect another $15-30/hr cash. So yes, that's not that much. Not a living wage.

Not all the employees get tips though. Cooks, busboys, host/hostess, etc.

Re: Cafeteria workers at Facebook struggle to make ends meet

#117

Post by humanrebar » Mon, Jul 24, 2017, 4:20 PM UTC

Sleeep wrote: post #18

cabaalis wrote: post #4

Serious question, politics aside. How many jobs have been prior filled by teenagers or recent college graduates, that are no longer being filled by those groups for whatever reason? Is every single type of profession required to support a family of 4? Edit: 5, per the photo on the article

Aren't cafeteria workers stereotypically ("in the old days") older women? (AKA "lunch lady") I used to work at cafeteria [non-school, for employees] part time and all the full timers were old woman who fit the stereotype to a T. The part timers were all teenagers though. The only people who see part timers where those who worked outside typical business hours.

Line cooks, dish washers, night cleaning staff, and bus boys are often male. People "out front" are often female for various reasons.

When I worked in a cafeteria, the men and boys often did the dirtier and heavier work like stocking freezers, cleaning grease traps, etc. I don't think it needs to be this way, but it's what happened. I'm not sure if that's typical or not, but it probably affects the longevity in food service work over time.

That is, different work cultures and different managers may treat men differently.

Re: Cafeteria workers at Facebook struggle to make ends meet

#118

Post by FussyZeus » Mon, Jul 24, 2017, 4:21 PM UTC

manigandham wrote: post #113

FussyZeus wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At some point we have to recognize that service workers must be paid a living wage, or be automated. We cannot, morally or economically, have an entire class of worker that we utterly depend on that lives permanently below the poverty line and we just step on them because "they didn't work hard in school" or whichever narrative you prefer to go with for why people who don't have a degree do work that is essential to…

> or be automated That's an extreme opposite from living wage.

Well if you follow the popular theories, this means better jobs are created elsewhere and improve life etc. etc. Historically this is true, this time is a lot different, in general it's just a different discussion I didn't feel like broaching in this thread.

Re: Cafeteria workers at Facebook struggle to make ends meet

#119

Post by ZoeZoeBee » Mon, Jul 24, 2017, 4:21 PM UTC

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #64

henraldp wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't be so susceptible. The literal story is about food workers who can't afford to raise a family in Palo Alto. The intended message seems to be that Facebook should pay food workers more than $20/hr. I think it's acceptable for people to ponder outside of that claim.

I think people are pondering outside of that claim because young programmers in Palo Alto also want cheap real estate so there's a shared interest. But things this article brings up that are more uncomfortable for the members of this board to think about like paying service workers more or pondering this: “They look at us like we’re lower, like we don’t matter,” said Nicole of the Facebook employees. “We don’t live t…

They're subcontracted from Flagship Facility Services, not actual Facebook employees

Re: Cafeteria workers at Facebook struggle to make ends meet

#120

Post by Applejinx » Mon, Jul 24, 2017, 4:22 PM UTC

monocasa wrote: post #73

mc32 wrote: post #25

MacDonald's is also a multibillion dollar corp., nobody in their right mind thinks they can raise a family working at MacD's without additional income or subsidy. It's a job for teenagers to get experience and for blue collar retirees to make some money to and to their SS checks. People should stop thinking teenager jobs sustain families. It doesn't have the value add. If you want to make a living open up a stand and…

The minimum wage was always supposed to be a living wage, not a pittance for teens and retirees. To quote FDR's statement when signing the law which instituted the first federal minimum wage. > In my Inaugural I laid down the simple proposition that nobody is going to starve in this country. It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers…

Well, we have a problem, then. Currently the whole of commerce and the whole of industry consider it a moral imperative to pay less than a living wage to workers, because that's how the value proposition shakes out when you include all possible sources of labor local and global, and include the option to automate away the labor entirely.

It's considered a moral imperative to seek the lowest cost and highest efficiency. Far from being 'not allowed to continue', any business that can legitimately arbitrage its labor so that it's paying less or substantially less than a living wage for equivalent labor, is celebrated and encouraged with the full force of societal capital. No other consideration is allowed to happen.

FDR's thinking absolutely doesn't apply anymore. Maybe it should, or maybe this just reveals the fact that our economic system is now orthoganal to human survival as a species.