Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case • Hacker News Board

Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#91

Post by brown9-2 » Sat, Jul 03, 2010, 3:28 PM UTC

obiefernandez wrote: post #23

Importantly: 1) Hashrocket has absolutely nothing to do with the criminal complaint 2) In the USA people are innocent until proven guilty Now if you're interested in this case, read on... There are hundreds of independent yellow pages (including Yellow Pages United) that legally use the term Yellow Pages and the "walking fingers" logo. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Pages My partners have been doing direct mail…

I've personally known them for almost 4 years and they're not crooks. They are important figures in the community and employ a few dozen people here.

How is this relevant?

Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#92

Post by MarkHoffman » Sat, Jul 03, 2010, 3:40 PM UTC

Obie is probably right and wrong.

He's probably right about the prosecutor being a grandstanding twit with little interest in justice, but only concerned about his own political career. I've been involved in (though not a party to) two criminal cases and neither case left me with much admiration for prosecutors. I realize they are just doing their job, but it's clear their own interest are placed far above the needs of justice.

But Obie is wrong about the nature of these types of directory businesses. As a business owner, I've come in contact with these type of companies and the most gracious description of them would be "ethically challenged". While they may operate under the letter of the law, they rely upon naivete and/or lack of scrutiny. They are no better than those companies that add a charge to your phone bill and hope you don't see it.

I can understand why people are disappointed to learn that Obie has decided to associate himself with people that are involved in these types of shady businesses. I also see why people would be concerned that Obie has partnered with these kind of people in building Hashrocket.

Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#93

Post by adam_lowe » Sat, Jul 03, 2010, 4:05 PM UTC

milesf wrote: post #71

acangiano wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL, but you can check Exibit A at the end of the document embedded in this blog post: http://avramc.posterous.com/united-directories-federal-court... Facts: - They clearly state that it's not a bill/invoice. - The fine print explains that there is no obligation to subscribe. - The fine print explains that they are not affiliated with the actual Yellow Pages. - The fine print font is larger than your typical bank s…

What's the deal with Mark Smith's brother Charles? "In September 2009, a Grand Jury sitting in the Northern District of Georgia indicted Charles Smith for committing mail fraud. He remains a fugitive."

Mark's brother Charles has been estranged from the family for 20 years or more. I have known the family which is very close knit and court was the first time I ever heard of the existence of Charles.

Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#94

Post by adam_lowe » Sat, Jul 03, 2010, 4:09 PM UTC

yxhuvud wrote: post #79

acangiano wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL, but you can check Exibit A at the end of the document embedded in this blog post: http://avramc.posterous.com/united-directories-federal-court... Facts: - They clearly state that it's not a bill/invoice. - The fine print explains that there is no obligation to subscribe. - The fine print explains that they are not affiliated with the actual Yellow Pages. - The fine print font is larger than your typical bank s…

The way you phrase this, it seems more of a trade mark violation than anything else.

Just to clarify per what was presented by both the prosecution and the defense in the case the walking fingers logo and yellow pages name are public domain. The various local phone companies engaged in the exact same business model have no more claim to them than anyone else. The only difference being that most of them were given the advantage of government subsidies and a bureaucratic pseudo monopoly blessing.

Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#95

Post by MarkHoffman » Sat, Jul 03, 2010, 4:10 PM UTC

adam_lowe wrote: post #51

The facts of the case are being skewed far from reality. It is sad that innocent until proven guilty seems to have been lost in the rumor mill. Even in a court room at times today that seemed to be the case. Mark and Marian provided seed money for Hashrocket and founded the company with Obie. They also own a separate company called United Directories that provides a paper and online business listing service. The comp…

Well, Adam, the facts are that your friends are running what can best be characterized as a shady business. Perhaps they didn't break the law, but I find it saddening to see Hashrocket folks fall over themselves to defend business practices such as these. Makes one question what kind of business-ethics Hashrocket encourages, doesn't it?

I think it's a bit much to suggest that your friend's business is just an innocent victim of an overzealous and incompetent law enforcement system. The complaint has enough facts contained in it to at least suggest that there is something shady going on. The very nature of their industry is suspect.

Defend them all you want, but consider that it only encourages people to associate the accused (and their ethics) with those with the people at Hashrocket.

Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#96

Post by adam_lowe » Sat, Jul 03, 2010, 4:15 PM UTC

hristov wrote: post #45

obiefernandez wrote: post #23

Importantly: 1) Hashrocket has absolutely nothing to do with the criminal complaint 2) In the USA people are innocent until proven guilty Now if you're interested in this case, read on... There are hundreds of independent yellow pages (including Yellow Pages United) that legally use the term Yellow Pages and the "walking fingers" logo. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Pages My partners have been doing direct mail…

I don't know the details but what the article is reporting seems pretty bad. Why did that person receive an invoice from your partners' business book, if he was not signed up for it? Or are going to say that it was not really an invoice, but an advertisement? In my opinion small business owners do not usually confuse an advertisement with an invoice, or otherwise they would not stay in business for long. So if that p…

The prosecution was asked to provide evidence that people received an invoice that had not signed up for the service. They were asked to provide a list of the businesses that complained and/or claimed fraud. They did not produce either. They just kept throwing out the same few numbers but never provided anything of substance to back up the numbers they claimed.

Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#97

Post by rortian » Sat, Jul 03, 2010, 4:50 PM UTC

brown9-2 wrote: post #91

obiefernandez wrote: post #23

Importantly: 1) Hashrocket has absolutely nothing to do with the criminal complaint 2) In the USA people are innocent until proven guilty Now if you're interested in this case, read on... There are hundreds of independent yellow pages (including Yellow Pages United) that legally use the term Yellow Pages and the "walking fingers" logo. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Pages My partners have been doing direct mail…

I've personally known them for almost 4 years and they're not crooks. They are important figures in the community and employ a few dozen people here. How is this relevant?

Indeed. Money laundering, for example, usually has to go through people that fit this description.

Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#98

Post by jacquesm » Sat, Jul 03, 2010, 4:54 PM UTC

obiefernandez wrote: post #23

Importantly: 1) Hashrocket has absolutely nothing to do with the criminal complaint 2) In the USA people are innocent until proven guilty Now if you're interested in this case, read on... There are hundreds of independent yellow pages (including Yellow Pages United) that legally use the term Yellow Pages and the "walking fingers" logo. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Pages My partners have been doing direct mail…

Hey Obie,

I've read the complaint and had a look at a sample 'not an invoice' and I find it commendable that you stand by your friends in times of trouble but really, don't you think that their business model is more than just a little shady ?

It reminds me of people preying on old folks by overcharging them for washing their windows or mowing their lawn because they 'agreed' to being overcharged.

Hiding behind 'the fine print' is not usually the mark of a great business.

Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#99

Post by jacquesm » Sat, Jul 03, 2010, 4:59 PM UTC

Confusion wrote: post #88

ryanjmo wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not think the pervious commentor was implying that they committed fraud; he or she was simply saying that they likely benefit from deceiving people. Many legit companies benefit from deceiving people.

I think it's rather rude of you and that previous commentor to assert such things. A company does not 'deceive' its customers just because you think the service they offer is useless and could only possibly be sold as a result of grandiose claims of effectiveness and other false pretenses. In fact, in this day and age, large parts of the worlds still work the same way they worked ten years ago. Time and time again, w…

Sending businesses invoices that are not really invoices until you read the fine print is scammy, even if the majority will never get paid it is essentially hoping for administrative people not being 'on the ball' enough to realize what they're doing.

Big corporations invented 'purchase orders' for that reason so they're fairly well protected, but the smaller companies that outsource their books because they're too busy doing their work are the ones that are the victims of companies like these.

I've received a couple of such 'not invoices' from companies here in NL and Belgium and they're usually crafted well enough that you have to read them three times before you realize they're not legit. One of them actually presented itself as a 'kvk' which is short for 'kamer van koophandel', the local chambers of commerce.

They're parasites, pure and simple, selling a service for which there is no real demand other than to create a 'product' used as a fig-leaf to hide the scam behind.

Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#100

Post by ewjordan » Sat, Jul 03, 2010, 5:07 PM UTC

gruntruk wrote: post #62

I think reading any/all headlines with the mindset of "interesting if it's true" is worthwhile here. The facts need to materialize before declaring fraud or any other type of malice. $425 million makes for a wonderful headline.

Did you see the actual advertisement?

Illegal, maybe not...but malicious? Certainly. An advertisement just doesn't come out accidentally looking like it's an invoice from the Yellow Pages (the real ones), that takes effort. The intent is crystal clear, it's not to convince someone that they would gain something from your service, it's to trick them into thinking that they already owe the money.

Really, now - can anyone honestly imagine any plausible scenario by which this "business model" could have been devised other than "Hey, I've got a great idea, Yellow Pages is not a trademarked term, let's print up an ad that looks like one of their bills and send it to millions of small businesses, some of them probably won't read the fine print and they'll pay up, thinking that they'll be removed from the Yellow Pages if they don't!"

If you really think this was more innocent than that, I've got a bridge to sell you. Even if it's legal, this is some shameful shit, and that Hashrocket is associated with (let alone founded by) these douchebags casts a long dark shadow over its image...