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Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

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Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#91

Post by chadk »

jasode wrote: post #58
austenallred wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point was not that the material itself was difficult to learn, but that knowing which direction to go in, or knowing what material to learn, was the more difficult part.

>, but that knowing which direction to go in But the coding bootcamp's curriculum and sequencing isn't necessarily superior. It could be as arbitrary or suboptimal as any low-rated 1-star book on Amazon. A curious programmer would actually be skeptical that the bootcamp has the proven syllabus for learning. Therefore, find a 5-star book on Javascript/Ruby on Amazon, and start with Ch 1. What evidence (not marketing m…

Plus you are ignoring the social aspects of learning.

Straight book-learning is not a fit for everyone.

Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#92

Post by ubernostrum »

tptacek wrote: post #5

A 250k Haskell programming job in SFBA is prima facie evidence of a "skills gap". The law of supply and demand says that's how you evaluate an inadequate number of available programmers. It's facile to suggest there's an adequate labor supply because employers can acquire developers simply by paying 5x the national median income. I would suggest instead that we focus on two other problems with bootcamps, one mentione…

or it may be because of correctable market inefficiencies that someone will make money arbitraging out

Talk to me about this in a couple years.

Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#93

Post by bdcravens »

austenallred wrote: post #23
wolco wrote: post #2

Because those who can learn under those conditions can easily learn the material for free and many have before attending. What they use a bootcamp for is a bridge into a career. People are finding other less costly ways into the job market. The bootcamps of the future will focus on either the experienced developers wanting to learn a new language/skill quickly. The structure will be like an extended conference where…

I think people underestimate how difficult it is to teach yourself, especially when there are so many different ways to learn and a million different paths to take. One of the most important parts of bootcamps, in my mind, is that all of the curriculum is there, in the right order, and on a set schedule. When I taught myself to program I probably spent 80% of my time finding the right resources and understanding what…

There will always be some types that are naturally inclined towards development. I learned on my own, no college degree, in the late 90's, when there was no Stack Overflow or Github. I lived in a tiny town, so there wasn't a local Barnes and Noble or the like.

I would say that someone who needs a curriculum won't succeed as a developer. They may remain hired, an eternal junior programmer, and as long as they're surrounded by seniors they'll make commits on a daily basis. They'll become the "one year of experience ten times" as they get on in their career. Succeeding as a developer really requires a knack of learning to learn and independent problem solving.

It's okay to not be at the upper level; we always need assembly line programmers. However, all of the marketing on bootcamps lumps everyone together, and doesn't tell the true story: there may not be enough assembly line programming jobs to go around.

Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#94

Post by learc83 »

austenallred wrote: post #83
JCzynski wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Don't get me wrong, most of the skills gap is for capable engineers, and if you understand data structures, algorithms, architecture, memory management, etc. you'll get a job very quickly. We're talking within a week. Empirically, that's totally false. The people I knew who went to the same bootcamp (App Academy) as me and had the strongest skills took longer, not shorter, to get jobs. The average was around 9 month…

How deep doesn't App Academy go into stuff like data structures, algorithms, memory management, architecture, scaling, etc.? I see mention of algorithms on the site, but not much else that would lead me to believe developers understand more fundamental CS concepts.

As deep as you can go in 13 weeks while also covering tooling, best practices, and example projects in 2 languages.

i.e., not very deep.

Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#95

Post by learc83 »

The best bootcamps (in terms of placement rates with SV companies) are equivalent to 12 week long interviews that the interviewee pays for.

They screen for people who already know a good bit, and are really good at interviewing in general.

Then they put those people through an intensive 3 month long coding interview and place the people who make it through.

The problem with this business model is that there is a small supply of people that are capable of making it through, are willing/able to pay $10k+ to do it, and are willing/able to go 3 months without pay.

It's a joke to think that Joe JobChanger is really going to pick up all the skills and knowledge he needs to get a job at Google in 3 months.

Professional programmers with years of experience regularly spend that long just practicing white board problems to get try to get a job at Google.

The amount of students who can do that is just too small to build an industry around.

Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#96

Post by EliRivers »

pjdemers wrote: post #10

People are realizing that even though coding pays well, it's not a job for everyone. We hired 4 people out of boot camps. All had a decent level of skill (of course they did, we choose the 4 we liked out of dozens available). However after a few weeks, two of them left, saying: "there is no f'en way I can do this 40 hours a week for the next few decades". And they went back to their old jobs and old pay.

Fifty percent of people you hired who came with experience of different industries told you that working conditions (be that the work itself, or your particular environment) were so bad that they'd rather go back to what they were doing before.

Did you take a look at the working conditions?

Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#97

Post by PretzelFisch »

maxxxxx wrote: post #41
matwood wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is no IT worker shortage. There is no junior worker shortage. A bootcamp grad is competing with other bootcamp (100+ boot camps) grads, and people who just self started and got to coding. Finding mid-level and senior people is actually quite challenging.

"Finding mid-level and senior people is actually quite challenging. " Strangely finding a job is also quite challenging for senior people....

I think this maybe a network issue. For those of use without a network there is more work finding a position, passing HR screens and interviews.

Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#98

Post by pm24601 »

jasode wrote: post #55
austenallred wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people underestimate how difficult it is to teach yourself, especially when there are so many different ways to learn and a million different paths to take. One of the most important parts of bootcamps, in my mind, is that all of the curriculum is there, in the right order, and on a set schedule. When I taught myself to program I probably spent 80% of my time finding the right resources and understanding what…

>I think people underestimate how difficult it is to teach yourself, I wanted to give some counterpoint to that. The point is not to argue with you because you clearly felt that it was "difficult" so by extension, it makes sense to project the learning obstacles out the world so we know they are there. You felt there were hurdles and that's all in the past so we can't argue with what you felt. (Hopefully, the above w…

I hire junior engineers. When I am looking at a resume, I am looking for something that indicates success possibilities.

Many times I see the only programming experience as the bootcamp.

A 4 year CS degree means that the candidate had to stick with the CS for 4 years: 12x longer than the bootcamp. (I am assuming summer internships as well)

This time allows concepts to sink in, be reenforced by later classes, implications of choices to all be seen.

Human beings require a certain amount of time. Its not just the 10000 hours (or whatever) of training. I feel that it is the duration of time that the learning takes place that is also important.

Bootcamps are too short for the deep, deep learning needed.

I haven't yet interviewed a bootcamper (only) candidate that can answer questions beyond the basic phone screen. My only guess is that they have had all this knowledge thrown at them, and their brain hasn't yet sort things out.

Why take a candidate like this if I can get a BSCS candidate? And if I can't get a CS grad? I rather trim the work. I am not in the business of giving a 4year CS education.

Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#99

Post by pm24601 »

bdcravens wrote: post #93
austenallred wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people underestimate how difficult it is to teach yourself, especially when there are so many different ways to learn and a million different paths to take. One of the most important parts of bootcamps, in my mind, is that all of the curriculum is there, in the right order, and on a set schedule. When I taught myself to program I probably spent 80% of my time finding the right resources and understanding what…

There will always be some types that are naturally inclined towards development. I learned on my own, no college degree, in the late 90's, when there was no Stack Overflow or Github. I lived in a tiny town, so there wasn't a local Barnes and Noble or the like. I would say that someone who needs a curriculum won't succeed as a developer. They may remain hired, an eternal junior programmer, and as long as they're surro…

Hmmm.....

> I would say that someone who needs a curriculum won't succeed as a developer.

I disagree.

Lets try this shall we:

"I would say that someone who needs a curriculum won't succeed as a "

... doctor

... pilot

... nurse

... electrician

... architect

I am not willing to accept a self-taught brain surgeon.

Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#100

Post by s_kilk »

pjdemers wrote: post #10

People are realizing that even though coding pays well, it's not a job for everyone. We hired 4 people out of boot camps. All had a decent level of skill (of course they did, we choose the 4 we liked out of dozens available). However after a few weeks, two of them left, saying: "there is no f'en way I can do this 40 hours a week for the next few decades". And they went back to their old jobs and old pay.

Perhaps a rather cruel take on the issue, but I think the only thing worse than mercenaries, is in-experienced mercenaries.
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