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Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

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Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#71

Post by staticautomatic »

vinceguidry wrote: post #63
ellius wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a good way to learn those skills at a professional level outside of a university setting? I feel like I've taught myself a sufficient amount of front end, back end, ops (Docker, IaC etc), but I'm at a loss for how to test my ability with algorithms and data structures, memory management, etc. I've picked up some books, but I don't have a good way to measure my ability or demonstrate it to employers.

I'm a self-taught web developer, and I can tell you that the skills and knowledge gap between web development and "real" software engineering is huge, enough to where I seriously consider going back to school to pick them up, even though I already make $100k+, I've reached the top of my earning potential. If I knew a program tailored to people like me that would give me a reasonably-accredited certificate and teach m…

Have you considered the Georgia Tech online masters in comp sci?

Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#72

Post by bsg75 »

Because becoming a developer, like any other discipline, is much more than than just learning to use tools (as quickly as possible).

Its probably that employers and students alike are starting to realize that expensive crash courses are often not the best investment.

Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#73

Post by tptacek »

NDizzle wrote: post #33
tptacek wrote: post #5

A 250k Haskell programming job in SFBA is prima facie evidence of a "skills gap". The law of supply and demand says that's how you evaluate an inadequate number of available programmers. It's facile to suggest there's an adequate labor supply because employers can acquire developers simply by paying 5x the national median income. I would suggest instead that we focus on two other problems with bootcamps, one mentione…

I wouldn't move myself and my family to the SFBA for a $250k job. Perhaps that's cliché to say that kind of thing at this point. It needs to pay more due to the cost of living. I'm making > 200 now in a city-data.com cost of living index 91 city. SF is COL index 170. The people who would take that job already have a similar job, more or less. It's not a skill gap so much as a "willing to put up with SF bullshit" gap.

Ok, I believe you, but what's your point? The only objective way to express a "skills gap" is the premium those skills command on the market. Meanwhile, it's obviously possible for there to be an outsized premium for a job you yourself wouldn't take.

We don't have to wade into the unproductive swamp of "how much it really costs a family to live in the Bay Area taking all quality of life factors into account".

Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#74

Post by KirinDave »

NDizzle wrote: post #33
tptacek wrote: post #5

A 250k Haskell programming job in SFBA is prima facie evidence of a "skills gap". The law of supply and demand says that's how you evaluate an inadequate number of available programmers. It's facile to suggest there's an adequate labor supply because employers can acquire developers simply by paying 5x the national median income. I would suggest instead that we focus on two other problems with bootcamps, one mentione…

I wouldn't move myself and my family to the SFBA for a $250k job. Perhaps that's cliché to say that kind of thing at this point. It needs to pay more due to the cost of living. I'm making > 200 now in a city-data.com cost of living index 91 city. SF is COL index 170. The people who would take that job already have a similar job, more or less. It's not a skill gap so much as a "willing to put up with SF bullshit" gap.

Probably wise. I live in Daly City and my current cash salary pre-tax is just a bit south of $200k (ignoring nonsensical dollar-for-dollar comparisons to income like ISOs, performance grants and bonuses). I'm not struggling to make ends meet, but I am glad I have a big balance from prior my prior payouts, as I'm not saving much (it's even possible to go in the red for the month if I need to buy a non-trivial purchase over a few hundred dollars, like say replacement computer hardware or a major baby related purpose).

I know friends making 30-50% less who actually save more per month than I do, in Colorado. Now, the downside is they live in Colorado (compared to the weather and allergy situation on the coast, I prefer this life), but unless I do yet another startup they'll retire with more money saved on average per month than I have.

It's pretty fucked up that the entirety of SF life is basically priced around the few post-exit people who set the tone of the market. That is actually only a tiny number of people. Most younger devs I know save 0 money and just hope their wages will grow fast enough to offset that in the long run.

Oh and ironically I am certain I could get a job as a Haskell developer, though that's not my job. :)

Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#75

Post by gkop »

austenallred wrote: post #23
wolco wrote: post #2

Because those who can learn under those conditions can easily learn the material for free and many have before attending. What they use a bootcamp for is a bridge into a career. People are finding other less costly ways into the job market. The bootcamps of the future will focus on either the experienced developers wanting to learn a new language/skill quickly. The structure will be like an extended conference where…

I think people underestimate how difficult it is to teach yourself, especially when there are so many different ways to learn and a million different paths to take. One of the most important parts of bootcamps, in my mind, is that all of the curriculum is there, in the right order, and on a set schedule. When I taught myself to program I probably spent 80% of my time finding the right resources and understanding what…

What era was it when you are learning?

Now we have excellent community-developed free and open resources like https://www.theodinproject.com .

Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#76

Post by matwood »

maxxxxx wrote: post #41
matwood wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is no IT worker shortage. There is no junior worker shortage. A bootcamp grad is competing with other bootcamp (100+ boot camps) grads, and people who just self started and got to coding. Finding mid-level and senior people is actually quite challenging.

"Finding mid-level and senior people is actually quite challenging. " Strangely finding a job is also quite challenging for senior people....

> Strangely finding a job is also quite challenging for senior people....

Are we talking about senior experience or X years in profession? I often see seniors (and mid, but less pronounced) who learned a job and did basically the same job for many years. When it's time to find a new job, they are barely beyond junior skill wise.

Senior people who kept learning through their career are incredibly valuable and rarely seem to ever hit the open market. They end up recruited/poached from existing jobs.

Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#77

Post by JCzynski »

austenallred wrote: post #7

There are so many things wrong with this that I don't know where to start. First, to say there's no skills gap is insanity. I refuse to believe anyone in the industry actually believes that - even the worst bootcamps are placing folks, they just place folks that are not well prepared and shift the burden of training to the company. I'm constantly blown away that some of those people get jobs, and they somehow keep th…

>Don't get me wrong, most of the skills gap is for capable engineers, and if you understand data structures, algorithms, architecture, memory management, etc. you'll get a job very quickly. We're talking within a week.

Empirically, that's totally false. The people I knew who went to the same bootcamp (App Academy) as me and had the strongest skills took longer, not shorter, to get jobs. The average was around 9 months.

Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#78

Post by tptacek »

yorwba wrote: post #47
icantdrive55 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have found when it comes to money, and career; 95% just go along with the flow. "Hay--its legal?" (I got my first dose of reality in Chiropractic School. It was obviously placebo, but placebo was just not talked about. Selling out is so common. I'm not talking the cute TV version on of selling out, but the real people who con the uninformed, and vulnerable out of their money daily. There's a lot of denial in so man…

You seem to have been shadowbanned for a long time now, but I didn't see anything in your comment history to justify it. Quite persistent of you to just continue posting! Maybe you should try contacting the mods to get your ban lifted?

FWIW: Two reasons (among many) that people can end up banned without anything in their comment record to explain it:

1. They've somehow participated in vote manipulation.

2. They were associated somehow with a sockpuppet account, which was itself banned.

It's probably better to stick to vouching for good comments that you think shouldn't be banned, and less on analyzing the reason for a ban (as you say, they can always just mail hn@ycombinator.com to find out what's going on).

Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#79

Post by matwood »

nilkn wrote: post #46
sokoloff wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In metro Boston area, we're paying new college grads $100K to start and sometimes losing on comp. We're not "desperate", but for the overall market wage for new college grads to be 1.5x the state median household income, that smells like shortage to me.

The state median household income includes high school dropouts working at McDonald's, and it includes folks living in very affordable rural areas with low wages. It's not a meaningful point of comparison when you're looking at a subset of workers who are highly educated and seeking jobs in a technically demanding field at companies located in almost exclusively expensive metro areas. To add to that, the Massachusett…

You made sokoloff's point. A fresh college grad on day 1 of working makes the median family income in Boston.

To say that wages are not reflecting the shortage (the comment originally replied to), is ignoring the statistics.

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